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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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LobsterNapkin · 06/09/2021 14:31

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

When shown evidence that yes, a number of TW have sexually offended against women in single sex spaces: ok, but it's unfair to exclude all male people on the grounds that some of them will be sex offenders.

It's Peter Tatchell's stance, and he seems to be representing TRA a lot in recent tv interviews.

It's safe to say tatchell is unconvinced about the needs of safeguarding.

It's important to understand the particular structure of this argument.

It's because we have two competing ideas in society. In one, you can look at things like offence stats and say, this is a statistical analysis and as such doesn't apply to individuals, but we can act upon it to protect groups of people.

According to the other perspective, even if there is some sort of statistical indication that a group has something like a higher rate of offences (say, poor people) it's not ok to make any concrete differentiation. In fact, many people consider it suspect to even talk about or notice that the statistical information.

The way we decide which way of thinking to use when is often not all that well thought out by most people. It's often done intuitively. Not necessarily randomly - most people probably have a sense that the reason male sexual offences are more common that female ones is different than the reason poor people might more often commit crimes, and so they shouldn't be managed in the same way. But if you ask people to lay out very clearly and logically their thinking on these things, it's often quite non-specific.

But one powerful way to protect oneself from being seen as a member of a group where it's ok to differentiate is to have some sort of status as a protected class. Because being a member of a protected class isn't just about saying - this group has been discriminated against for no reason. It can also be that it says we can't discriminate even when there might be a reason. For example, as an employer, you can't discriminate against a woman because she might take maternity leave, or because she might be more likely to take time off to deal with childcare - even if those things are absolutely true.

This creates a huge incentive for people with some sort of commonality to treat them as identity characteristics, because they then have a kind of position from which to negotiate being treated as a group that needs to be protected in a way that is different than another group. An example of this might be the split between those who wanted to see the gay rights movement lead to a place where the distinction around sexuality became invisible, and ceased to be a significant unifying identity focus, and those who want to maintain it as a distinction with political significance and lobbying power. The ideal of the former would tend to remove much political focus around sexuality - gay people would then simply belong to various political positions, ideological positions, like other people, but they wouldn't wield any really separate political clout.

But in a political landscape that often elevates identity groupings over individual perspectives, even including the individual perspectives of those within the groupings, everyone needs to find an identity group if they want to be able to effectively engage in politics.

An it's going to be the most direct way to avoid questions about behaviours that some might feel are anti-social.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/09/2021 14:05

However neither come out of that situation looking good. I can't muster much sympathy at her feeling intimidated by Starkey because presumably if David announced he was Davina she'd retrofit his behaviour as not being a display of male aggression and welcome him into a spa with little girls.

Indeed.

RoyalCorgi · 06/09/2021 13:28

I see it as recognising Starkey's behaviour as a display of aggression that was intended to intimidate.

Agreed. I saw a powerful older man intimidating a much younger woman. Pretty frightening behaviour.

Floisme · 06/09/2021 13:19

I don't see it as sympathising with Penny, I see it as recognising Starkey's behaviour as a display of aggression that was intended to intimidate. Turn off the sound and it's even more striking.

There was no need for it. Penny's attack was a verbal one; it wan't especially compelling and I'd have thought a seasoned public speaker like Starkey should have been perfectly capable of responding in kind.

OvaHere · 06/09/2021 12:46

She's not wrong for wanting to be paid, whether what she asked for was unreasonable I have no way of knowing. I doubt she has a fraction of Starkey's wealth so doing it as charity might not have been an option.

However neither come out of that situation looking good. I can't muster much sympathy at her feeling intimidated by Starkey because presumably if David announced he was Davina she'd retrofit his behaviour as not being a display of male aggression and welcome him into a spa with little girls.

MiladyBerserko · 06/09/2021 11:31

I dislike them both intensely and that performance enforces my perception. They are both snide, petty little shits with horrible attitudes and it's good to see the light shine on it.

Thanks for that clip.

ArabellaScott · 06/09/2021 10:52

@Sophoclesthefox

That clip is an embarrassment of riches, two insufferable twerps knocking lumps out each other Grin
I feel sorry for both of them. Smile
Floisme · 06/09/2021 10:41

I'm not fan of Penny but that's because of some of the things she says and writes - I don't see what the pitch of her voice has to with anything.

As for that clip, I thought Starkey was entitled to reply to her point but the way he approached and then stood right over her jabbing his finger not far from her face wasn't on. If someone did that to me, I'd be intimidated.

allmywhat · 06/09/2021 09:52

Wow, Penny comes off so badly there. If she’d assertively said “Yes, I asked to be paid, I can’t afford to not be paid for two days work” she’d have been fine and would have probably been able to flip it round on him.

Of course it’s easy for me to say that, I’m not the one put on the spot by a shouty man in front of a live audience.

Still, I think it’s telling that her instinctive reaction was to deny it and then go into that victim-y “I don’t have very much” thing. I was cringing so much for her I had to stop watching. She goes into victim mode a lot, it seems. No wonder she’s a TRA.

JustcameoutGC · 06/09/2021 09:50

What an odious little man. I can't say either of them come off well.

EdgeOfACoin · 06/09/2021 09:20

I can't say that Starkey came across well on that clip either. Penney should have had her right to reply uninterrupted (and I really can't stand Penney, so am not used to defending her).

It looks as though neither of them were due to be paid for their time in the previous debate, not just Penney.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/09/2021 09:13

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

Re the Laurie Penny clip, she is indeed insufferable (as is Starkey) but she is not wrong to want to be paid for her work. Too often women are expected to do everything for free, while men get paid. We are worthy of payment.
Yes. It's very common for women to be offered no payment or a paltry honorarium while the men receive money.

Even in Hollywood a lot of leading actresses were upaid as producers (Good Wife) while the men were paid for it. Sometimes this even happened on the same series.

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 06/09/2021 08:32

She comes across as one of those horrible children who sit there pulling the dog's tail.amd ears and whiskers, ignore the air-snap, carry on and then howl the place down when they get bitten.

Dishing it out and not being able to take it... Plus the voice. Plus the whole floundering around about why she asked for a huge fee. Just say, I'm busy, something has come up. Starkey was v rude but he was sorely provoked.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 06/09/2021 08:31

Re the Laurie Penny clip, she is indeed insufferable (as is Starkey) but she is not wrong to want to be paid for her work. Too often women are expected to do everything for free, while men get paid. We are worthy of payment.

Bordois · 06/09/2021 08:13

Maybe when TW start getting sexually harassed and assaulted by Sex Offenders in female only spaces something might get done 🙄

Sophoclesthefox · 06/09/2021 07:12

That clip is an embarrassment of riches, two insufferable twerps knocking lumps out each other Grin

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2021 02:30

Gawd what a pair of wankers .

(Watched the video).

LizzieSiddal · 05/09/2021 23:51

Oh my word, that video. How embarrassing for both of them but she attacked Starky first, does she expect him to be silent and not respond to her accusations?

She really does like

dyslek · 05/09/2021 23:42

Tbf, the look on her face when she realises shes been caught out really is priceless, its almost painful to watch (and I loath her)

littlbrowndog · 05/09/2021 23:37

Omg her voice

dyslek · 05/09/2021 22:46

If anyone wants a little remider of the modus operandi of Ms Penny, enjoy the link.

Perpsonally its the little girl voice I cant get over, most of all its just fucking weird.

TatoAndBeans · 05/09/2021 22:04

@ZuttZeVootEeeVro

When shown evidence that yes, a number of TW have sexually offended against women in single sex spaces: ok, but it's unfair to exclude all male people on the grounds that some of them will be sex offenders.

It's Peter Tatchell's stance, and he seems to be representing TRA a lot in recent tv interviews.

It's safe to say tatchell is unconvinced about the needs of safeguarding.

Tatchell who said in defence of a pro-paedophilia book “The positive nature of some child-adult sexual relationships is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends - gay and straight, male and female - had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy. While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful.”.

And the TRA’s think he’s a good spokesperson to address our concerns about safeguarding!

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 05/09/2021 21:35

"it's unfair to exclude all male people in the grounds that some of them will be sex offenders*
By that argument, it's unfair to carry out DBS checks on everyone who wants to volunteer or work in a school on the grounds that some of them will be sex offenders.

And yet, we all get DBS checked all the same...

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 05/09/2021 21:30

When shown evidence that yes, a number of TW have sexually offended against women in single sex spaces: ok, but it's unfair to exclude all male people on the grounds that some of them will be sex offenders.

It's Peter Tatchell's stance, and he seems to be representing TRA a lot in recent tv interviews.

It's safe to say tatchell is unconvinced about the needs of safeguarding.

Artichokeleaves · 05/09/2021 17:54

@QuimReaper

I've only read about half the thread, but I've seen several posters saying that TRAs will now deflect with a 'they're not really trans' defence. I don't think that's a defence at all - one of the biggest things we've been saying for years is that self ID will be ripe for abuse by sex offenders who aren't trans at all but can exploit a loophole to enter female spaces. I think thats exactly what's happened here, and proof positive that the idea that this can and will happen isn't a 'fantasy' as Judith Butler claimed. Certainly I didn't assume this person was necessarily trans, so much as claiming to be in order to access women, which is exactly what many of us have been warning of for years.
From what I can make out, the argument kind of goes

No true trans person will do this

When shown evidence that yes, a number of TW have sexually offended against women in single sex spaces: ok, but it's unfair to exclude all male people on the grounds that some of them will be sex offenders.

Which then moves on to: yes this is a risk female people will take in their spaces being commandeered, and some will suffer, but this is a fair price to pay for the genuine TW having the freedoms they deserve.

Which is essentially male supremacism: that the needs and freedoms of people born male and their self actualisation is more important than the actual physical injury and life changing harm caused by a sexual assault.

And yet the reason given for male people being able to identify into female spaces as they feel they need to is that sex isn't binary/not a thing. The very much sex based thinking and very much intentional and entirely sex based disadvantage proves how very little anyone really believes this, even when they are the ones putting it forward.