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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Quick reassurance needed please

110 replies

BlackAlys · 02/09/2021 08:29

Return to school today and pupils toilets have changed to unisex toilets.

This surely isn't legal? Furious.

OP posts:
Artichokeleaves · 02/09/2021 10:48

The head needs to realise in a few weeks he's also going to have to move with the times and get on to the next steps of realising in reality, most kids hate this, there are a fuckton of practical issues like who won't come to school, who is out of lessons for ages trying to get to a single sex loo, who isn't drinking, and how many sexual harassment situations have arisen, and he's opened himself up for a whole lot of problems he hadn't thought of.

This is the trouble with being all trendy and moving with the times and fashions instead of using basic common sense - the goalposts shift very quickly.

Imasoulman · 02/09/2021 10:43

@catzwhiskas

imasoulman if everyone sed the toilets according to their sex this problem would not arise. If men and boys had any respect for women and each other, it wold not arise. It is always women and girls who lose out.
I absolutely agree and have repeatedly said on many discussions here that single sex spaces are vital and need to be protected. You will never hear me arguing otherwise.

However in this day and age if those spaces are going to be protected then unisex spaces need to be created along side single sex.

I don't see how this means that women and girls are missing out.
As I said before I thought this was the solution most level headed people wanted to see.

catzwhiskas · 02/09/2021 10:34

imasoulman if everyone sed the toilets according to their sex this problem would not arise. If men and boys had any respect for women and each other, it wold not arise. It is always women and girls who lose out.

OhHolyJesus · 02/09/2021 10:21

The UK government guidance on toilets in schools, from page 5

SPRs Regulation 4 — (1) Subject to paragraph (3), suitable toilet and washing
facilities must be provided for the sole use of pupils.
(2) Separate toilet facilities for boys and girls aged 8 years or over must be provided except where the toilet facility is provided in a room that can be secured from the inside and that is intended for use by one pupil at a time.

I would argue that if they are cubicles in a line that is not an toilet but a bank of cubicles so not intended for one at a time. Also as the sinks are outside the toilet is not self-contained and not for one at a time.
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/410294/Advice_on_standards_for_school_premises.pdf

The ratio of provision might be useful, as the sinks are outside of the cubicles it counts as shared sinks:

Numbers of fittings - The regulations do not set the minimum number of fittings to be provided in relation to the ages and numbers of pupils. Generally the needs of younger pupils are likely to be
greater than those for older ones. So, for example, a provision of one toilet and washbasin for every ten pupils under 5 years old would be adequate, while that ratio could be doubled for pupils aged 5-11 to one toilet and washbasin for every 20 pupils.

For pupils over 11 one toilet per 20 pupils would be sufficient, but there is scope to reduce the number of washbasins where the washing facilities are shared.

Did a newsletter go out to inform parents? As a secondary school I'm sure parents of girls who will be starting their periods might have something to say about this.

This might also be useful from page 12.

www.schooltoilets.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/CubicleCentre-SchoolGuide.pdf

ArabellaScott · 02/09/2021 09:55

Oh, dear. You may want to pass him the recent debacle at Highland Council, Culloden Academy.

He's going to have to convince all the parents and pupils to 'move with the times', too.

www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/schools-family/3419599/a-convenient-truth-your-views-on-unisex-toilets-in-schools/

www.change.org/p/highland-council-we-say-no-to-unisex-toilets-in-highland-council-schools?redirect=false

Not sure if Schools guidance is the same in Wales as Scotland, if so, this might also be useful:

forwomen.scot/06/08/2020/school-toilets/?fbclid=IwAR11cQbtpRIAxjrYMQKEna9l60SEfTAZTHD3mwhseP1OQTCokDbTm0Fx_E8

PaleGreenGhost · 02/09/2021 09:54

@titchy

If there are single sex toilets elsewhere then it might be interesting to make a note of how many boys v girls use the unisex facilities. If it's largely only boys, then clearly girls have been discriminated against. You could also argue that their education will suffer if they have to walk to the other side of school to pee as they'll be late back for lessons.
This is an excellent idea (although I'm not sure how it will work in practice).

Also be interesting to compare cleanliness.

Re your head's comments about "move with the times". Angry The times are moving backwards for women and children. Why should you accept this?

BlackAlys · 02/09/2021 09:45

@ArabellaScott

You could check building regulations and Health and Safety policy, OP.

I understood mixed sex facilities had to include sinks within the cubicle with toilet, for privacy, but I've not found the guidance very clear. I think it was written more with disabled facilities in mind (which are usually mixed sex).

I thought the same.

Our Head is captured. Told last term that I had to move with the times.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 02/09/2021 09:40

You could check building regulations and Health and Safety policy, OP.

I understood mixed sex facilities had to include sinks within the cubicle with toilet, for privacy, but I've not found the guidance very clear. I think it was written more with disabled facilities in mind (which are usually mixed sex).

FrancescaContini · 02/09/2021 09:37

I’d be absolutely livid and sending in the brilliantly written letter above - thanks for providing it.

titchy · 02/09/2021 09:35

If there are single sex toilets elsewhere then it might be interesting to make a note of how many boys v girls use the unisex facilities. If it's largely only boys, then clearly girls have been discriminated against. You could also argue that their education will suffer if they have to walk to the other side of school to pee as they'll be late back for lessons.

BlackAlys · 02/09/2021 09:33

I'm in Wales.

Yes, I am satisfied that all other toilets are single sex. Still wary though, we already had 2 designated gender neutral toilets, so this push towards increasing that number is getting harder.

OP posts:
Imasoulman · 02/09/2021 09:29

@BlackAlys

Another member of staff has asked - there are still single sex toilets around school.

These are our new, shiny and brave unisex toilets.

Ffs.

If there are still single sex toilets as well then I really don't see a problem I thought this is the solution to the toilet issue most people wanted.
ArabellaScott · 02/09/2021 09:27

Are you England/Wales or Scotladn?

BlackAlys · 02/09/2021 09:19

Another member of staff has asked - there are still single sex toilets around school.

These are our new, shiny and brave unisex toilets.

Ffs.

OP posts:
Imasoulman · 02/09/2021 09:11

Have they all been changed to unisex?

MonsignorMirth · 02/09/2021 09:07

If existing single sex toilets have been converted have the numbers of male only and female only toilets been reduced? If so this is again in breach of the Equality Act 2010 as it discriminates against one protected characteristic (sex) in favour of another.

Not completely clear whether this applies in op's case so op might want to establish the reason for the change before mentioning other protected characteristics.

BlackAlys · 02/09/2021 09:05

In my workplace

Excellent letter.

Have yet to find out if this is across the whole school or just in my teaching area.

I'm grateful for all your help here.

OP posts:
AnyOldPrion · 02/09/2021 09:04

Presumably your children have texted you?

I might start the conversation with a simple “this is unacceptable” and ramp it up later. Many others might also complain and if so, it might change back quickly. Plenty of time for calm arguments about the law later?

LoislovesStewie · 02/09/2021 09:02

Oh, wow! Excellent letter!

LoislovesStewie · 02/09/2021 09:00

I think you have every right to be angry. How dare they do this to young females during what is, a difficult time in life. I wouldn't want to have unisex toilets at my place of work, and knowing how awful teen boys can be I wouldn't want to use them if I were a teen girl. It's another step in the wrong direction for females.

Pickledonionsfortea · 02/09/2021 08:57

Not sure link worked

An email from a supporter to her child’s school regarding mixed-sex toilets

Dear [School name]
Regarding your announcements earlier today about the installation of mixed sex toilets at [school] I would like clarification of the following points.

  1. Please provide me with a copy of the consultation (with results) that you undertook with children and parents prior to making the decision to install mixed sex toilets. As a parent of a [year] student I am concerned that neither myself of my daughter received a copy of this.
  2. Please provide a copy of the impact assessment you undertook prior to making this decision. I refer specifically to the impact of using mixed sex facilities on the safety and privacy of female students. For example what consideration has been given to the specific biological needs of girls?
  3. What safeguarding measures are you putting in place to safeguard young girls in an enclosed space with males? I’m sure you will be aware that when sexual assault, harassment and voyeurism are carried out against women and girls in toilets that 90% of the time this occurs in mixed sex facilities. How has this been taken into consideration?
  4. How have you assessed the physical and psychological impact on female students of being forced to share toilets with males? Please provide details of all the steps you will be taking to mitigate the negative impact of mixed sex toilets on female students which have been seen in other areas of the UK where these have already been introduced. I refer to reports of girls missing school during their period and deliberately dehydrating themselves in order to not have to urinate in the presence of boys.
  5. Plan UK International have recently found that between 48 and 56% of girls (depending on age) experience period shaming at school. What are you doing to counteract this and how can you ensure that mixed sex facilities will help reduce this? How do you plan to ensure that young girls who are just getting used to menstruation can deal with this in privacy and with dignity? Have you ensured that the mixed sex toilets have private, enclosed wash spaces where girls can deal with accidents relating to menstruation discreetly?
  6. What have you done to ensure that the installation of mixed sex toilet facilities complies with the Equality Act 2010 which states that children over the age of 8 years are entitled to have access to single sex toilet facilities? This includes separate toilets, wash basins and sanitary disposal units.
  7. The Education (School Premises) 1999 Regulations state that - ‘Except that as provided in regulation 4(3) (which relates to toilets for disabled students) separate facilities for males and females over the age of 8 years must be provided. Again how are you complying with this?
  8. Please advise whether any existing single sex toilet provision has been converted to mixed sex or are these facilities entirely new? What is the exact number of male only, female only and mixed sex cubicles available and in the case of the mixed sex toilets how many have enclosed washing facilities?
  9. If existing single sex toilets have been converted have the numbers of male only and female only toilets been reduced? If so this is again in breach of the Equality Act 2010 as it discriminates against one protected characteristic (sex) in favour of another. As boys are less likely to be made to feel uncomfortable using mixed sex facilities than girls how can you be sure you have not effectively doubled the toilet provision for male students whilst not doing the same for female students?
  10. How do you plan to keep the mixed sex facilities clean? Are girls expected to wipe urine off seats before using the toilets themselves?
  11. Please provide details of any third party organisations e.g. charities that have been involved in making this decision and why you felt it was appropriate to include them. I would like to see details of the amount of input these organisations have had and what advice they given the school particularly in relation to equality legislation.
  12. Can you confirm if there are any plans to remove single sex toilet provision from the school completely and if so when parents will be consulted about this.
  13. Please confirm whether single sex toilet provision will be available for all students at all times of the school day and if it is equally accessible from all areas of the school.
  14. Finally please confirm whether your mixed sex policy will also be extended to changing facilities and sleeping accommodation on residential trips and the safeguarding and impact assessments you have completed in relation to this. I’m sure you can appreciate my concerns regarding the safety, privacy and dignity of my daughter whilst she is in your care and I look forward to receiving your responses to my questions.
BlackAlys · 02/09/2021 08:52

Thank you all.
In a meeting and hard to text.
So angry.

OP posts:
HipTightOnions · 02/09/2021 08:52

@BlackAlys

Do they have to have one?
No I don’t think they are required to, but it could start a conversation. You could point out that certain protected groups (girls, those with particular religious beliefs etc.) are especially negatively affected.
Pickledonionsfortea · 02/09/2021 08:50

Safe schools Alliance safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/letter-templates/#Mixed-sex_Toilets_letter
Good luck

midgemagneto · 02/09/2021 08:49

One in five may suffer very heavy bleeding