The look at me of pronouns

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

I would very much relish such a discussion with someone who has previously acknowledged that they are speaking from a position of privilege and doesn't really understand the need for sex based rights.

But yes, as pp said, it's not your place to harangue people for not signing up to your ideological beliefs.

Leee - autocorrect.

I wonder if the singer of Imagination, Lee John goes by they/them as “we are many”.

Isn't it known that when females are reminded of their sex, their performance deteriorate?

Stating pronouns == forcing women to either declare their sex , and do lead to self imposed gender inequality, or declare another sex, forcing them to accept giving up all the rights that a woman has around personal dignity ?

I told a young family member the other day that my pronouns are none of my business, as they would only be used when I'm being spoken about and it's none of my business what someone says about me if I'm not there. I guess I was bought up being told you should never eavesdrop and it's kind of stuck.

I've not yet been asked in a professional setting yet but I hope I have the courage to say something similar or if I was feeling extra brave 'my pronouns are Her Royal Highness'.

*I disagree that stating preferred pronouns reflects or encourages gender stereotypes.

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.*

You may not agree that stating pronouns reinforces gender stereotypes but clearly many people do. This is often the reason why people don't state their pronouns. You can see from this thread that many people also consider that it is promoting an ideology. From participating on this thread, therefore, you already have your answer to the 'challenge' you propose. Why ask a question you already know the answer to? Can you see how that would be experienced as hugely arrogant by many people?

Oh, and I've also just remembered a small amount of posters on the FWR who have said that they've had transgender relatives fall out with them, despite them being respectful of name changes and preferred pronouns, because the relative doesn't think that the poster truly believes that they are now the opposite sex.

I find this forced belief quite unsettling, given that it's not based on anything concrete, just feelings and beliefs.

So to be considered say none binary you have to present in a gender neutral way

Which is not possible for a big boobed lady without radical surgery? And actually fit most women they would also need "hardening " hormones that would also harm their bodies.

Why can't you just accept people as they are without having labels , without them needing to classify themselves? Apart from biology why do we need the terms man and woman?

Can you give a single example unrelated to biology where your notion of sex/gender matters ?

Why should you treat me differently because you think I am a woman?

Myself and other posters have found that it's just not enough to say 'no, thank you' regarding pronouns. It is inevitably challenged and often gets a very negative response

If you know someone who thinking they're going to be asked/challenged soon because of this, message me please.

It's just made me think of something that happened in a previous job of mine. I ran a community hobby group (think a book club or knitting or something similar) and one of the partipant's had recently become a Christian. In the course of a conversation, she asked if I was Christian myself and I said no, I wasn't. She asked why and I said something along the lines of that it just wasn't for me, I had been to church services in the past, read articles, respected people's beliefs but just didn't believe myself.

She wouldn't let it go. Every group session after that she would bring it up. It made me more and more uncomfortable but because I was employed there I couldn't just say 'please can you drop it now, this is starting to feel like harassment'.

It simply wasn't enough that I didn't believe myself. It wasn't enough that I didn't make comments against her religion. In her eyes, I had to be made to believe.

And this is what it feels like. You can't just respect someone else's pronouns. You have to be made to participate, to believe.

we’re all used to gendered pronouns

Wrong Helen. Until about 5 minutes ago we were all using sex-based pronouns.

I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it

Yes, how incredibly inclusive of you.

This is exactly the problem that women face. Would you be willing to have that little discussion with an employee in the presence of an employment lawyer?

[quote Helen8220]@EarthSight
Do you think you are being inclusive to butch women who may be really tired of people now asking for their pronouns all the time, of being made to feel like they're not really women because people are questioning their pronouns in a way they clearly wouldn't do as often for other women who are gender conforming? Can you not see how insulting it would be for them that you wouldn't find it their preferred pronouns to be obvious?

I don’t think a person should be asked specifically for their pronouns, unless it’s in a context where everyone is being asked for their pronouns regardless of how they present. If I met a person who presented in a gender-neutral way and I needed to refer to them using third person pronouns, and they hadn’t indicated preferred pronouns, I would use the pronouns that reflected whatever I believed their biological sex to be. If I was really unsure of their sex I would probably just avoid using pronouns until I received a prompt from them or someone else who already knew them.[/quote]
Again, I have so many questions -

If I met a person who presented in a gender-neutral way

What is it to present in a gender neutral way?

If I was really unsure of their sex

To be unsure of someone's sex, that means that you must feel you are at times able to correctly sex someone. How is it possible to be even be unsure of someone's sex, if sex is all on a spectrum? Wouldn't it then be infinite different shades, where it's not possible to distinguish one from the other? Where there are no binaries?

@Helen8220

I disagree that stating preferred pronouns reflects or encourages gender stereotypes

Please elaborate on how ideological pronouns are not about gender stereotypes.

@Theeyeballsinthesky These days I think it's often a signal that someone's not politically interested or involved, that they're not the type to rock the boat, so when someone comes along and says 'this is what you should do to be inclusive and nice', they simply do it. There's no probing, no asking questions, no challenging. They just want an easy life.

You know when someone's post is too long and they write 'TLDR'? (too long didn't read)? For many, it's a case of 'THDT' (too hard didn't think).

@KittenKong

If you say that you are she/her, what do you think that means about your identity, and what you are communicating to others about your identity?

I'm asking because some women are under the impression that all it means is that they have no issues with gender identity, or that they are simply biological females, but that isn't what it is at all. What it actually means is that you agree with a certain set of stereotypes of how how women are. You're agreeing to the fact that being a woman is mainly defined as an inner feeling one has, a sort of semi-spiritual concept.

Do you think that womenhood should be limited to and mainly defined as not being very good at maths, liking pink, having a fondness for babies, being submissive, not being ambitious, enjoying high-heels and doing the housework? That is has nothing to do with our biological reality, like the fact most women give birth, our reproductive system, the fact we're more vulnerable to sexual violence in particular?

Again, if you do, then your pronouns usage is at least in alignment with your beliefs. If you don't think your womanhood should be limited to those things, then I would give using ideological pronouns extra consideration.

*summer - zimmer

‘Be kind’ folk are the mean girls of today.

And the shouty person (raincoat and summer) at the Scottish Parliament protest - tweets from them screaming ‘I hope you are put to death, etc’ to liz truss. Yuh, be kind my backside.

Challenged and insulted. Hissing staff calling you wary names because you won’t play ball with them. Immature and bullying.

'Challenge' is too close to the TRA cry of 'educate yourself' for me to feel comfortable with tbh. Myself and other posters have found that it's just not enough to say 'no, thank you' regarding pronouns. It is inevitably challenged and often gets a very negative response. I have no issue with respecting preferred pronouns (with some obvious exceptions) but there is a culture of mandating that people state their own pronouns - I am uncomfortable with this.

I also think it's really quite unrealistic to think that an entire language's rules will change in order to have non sexed pronouns.

Oh and they will get bitten on the bum. It happens time and time again - a company goes full ‘whatever’ and someone somewhere will realise that there are bullies, creeps and rather unpleasant people and practices doing whatever they please. Staff leave, whistleblow and shine a light on the company that was being hailed for having such wonderful practices.

Well - wait until the HR department is awash with young’uns making every wilder demands and complaints about every bloody thing. Expecting the business to work around them.

See productivity and staff satisfaction drop. Watch shareholders getting pissed off, and senior management team jumping ship. See the negative social media commentary from staff and outsiders alike because - people to think that they can say whatever they like because ‘I’m Meeeeeeee’.

Good luck to them.