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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The look at me of pronouns

461 replies

Ritascornershop · 01/09/2021 18:14

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

OP posts:
Darkchocolateandcoffee · 06/09/2021 22:49

It is pathetic

Helen8220 · 06/09/2021 22:47

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen.

No, I think you must be thinking of someone else, I'm perfectly capable of taking on your weak arguments and willing to do so.

Looking back it appears either it was you, or someone with the same username

The look at me of pronouns
The look at me of pronouns
FlyingOink · 06/09/2021 18:41

I've heard of a lot of gender non-conforming women getting asked their pronouns. I'd make a formal HR complaint if I was asked mine.

I don't see how people who are aware that asking an Asian colleague if they love curry is completely inappropriate, somehow fail to understand that buzz cut does not equal neopronouns or indeed the age-old "wanting to be a man".

You just shouldn't judge someone on their appearance and make stupid assumptions, it's terrible for business and a potential legal minefield.
I also agree that including pronouns signals an acceptance of gender theory.

Fitt · 06/09/2021 18:12

I'm happy to have a religious chat, I just don't want the attempt at conversion by a believer. Same with pronoun fans. I might be unable to avoid laughing.

KittenKong · 06/09/2021 18:03

I once had a ‘lovely chat’ with a Jehovah’s Witness... I ended up inviting him I’m for a tea and to continue our discussion... but he ran away. And I was being nice (and asking all those questions I’d been saving up for religious types).

Fitt · 06/09/2021 17:30

I'm not scared by the discussion, it's more the same reaction when you realise you have opened the door and it is the Jehovah's witnesses out there.

My first thought is to shut the door and laugh.

EarthSight · 06/09/2021 14:47

@Fitt

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

This is hilarious. I think most people would run a mile from a "discussion" with you.

@Fitt I would say that's the point isn't it? To scare women into submission and 'educate' them on their wrong think.

Again, if people want to frame their identity in a certain way, then ok (and I sympathise with people who do feel discomfort with sex-based pronouns)...... BUT, other people shouldn't have to also adopt the same practices, in the same as you shouldn't have to adopt religious practices if you don't want to.

EarthSight · 06/09/2021 14:41

@PissedOffNeighbour22

It's creeping in at my workplace too. I've noticed more and more it happening. Mainly women who identify as ..... women.

I will be saying no if I'm requested to add this to my email signature. It already annoyed me enough that they're trying to force us to add photos of ourselves to our profiles.

@PissedOffNeighbour22 Ugh yes! From a business point of view, people do feel comfortable when they can put a face to a name, but it also increases the chance of various types of discrimination.

Inside the company, most people just want to see photos because it just gives them more info to judge you on I feel.

EarthSight · 06/09/2021 14:38

@WorriedWishingWell

It's creeping in at my work. Someone asked if they could direct their team members to do it. Although the answer was no, there was a lot of "people need educating and then they'll realise why they need to do it."
@WorriedWishingWell

If they keep pushing, show them that they are going against what Stonewall wrote for International Pronoun Day, which was -

Including pronouns in e-mail signatures should be encouraged, but not be made compulsory as not everyone may feel comfortable sharing their pronouns. There are many different reasons for this and it may be true for both cis and trans staff. (This should also be remembered when verbally introducing pronouns at the start of meetings.)

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/international-pronouns-day

PissedOffNeighbour22 · 06/09/2021 14:38

It's creeping in at my workplace too. I've noticed more and more it happening. Mainly women who identify as ..... women.

I will be saying no if I'm requested to add this to my email signature. It already annoyed me enough that they're trying to force us to add photos of ourselves to our profiles.

WorriedWishingWell · 06/09/2021 14:27

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Our diversity guidance suggests all meetings should start with introductions including pronouns all round. Obviously nobody's read the guidance because it's yet to happen in a meeting I've been at. Even one led by HR.
Shock Wonder what would happen if someone said "my pronouns are irrelevant and self evident"
WorriedWishingWell · 06/09/2021 14:24

It's creeping in at my work. Someone asked if they could direct their team members to do it. Although the answer was no, there was a lot of "people need educating and then they'll realise why they need to do it."

KittenKong · 06/09/2021 13:47

So they use all that... how are we supposed to know when which is relevant?

viques · 06/09/2021 13:37

@Kanaloa

To me the weirdest ones (which I’ve seen in uni email signatures) is she/them or he/them. What does that mean? Do you want to be she/he or them? Or she sometimes and they sometimes. You might as well say Jane, quavers/wotsits for the amount of sensible information I get from that.
I like quavers/whotsits

I might adopt that and change from

Dash of milk/ no sugar

KittenKong · 06/09/2021 11:59

So I’ve just filled out a job form where I have declined to tell them my gender identity (also race i identity with or add a photo). Any interview should be interesting...

Fitt · 06/09/2021 10:08

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

This is hilarious. I think most people would run a mile from a "discussion" with you.

Janaih · 06/09/2021 09:30

Does he really! You couldn't make this shit up.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/09/2021 08:21

A while ago me and dh were loading up a joe wicks YouTube workout when an advert with Lil Nas X popped up banging on about pronouns.

And despite his submission to this ideology he still gets called a transphobe because he says he only likes dick.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/09/2021 08:19

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen.

No, I think you must be thinking of someone else, I'm perfectly capable of taking on your weak arguments and willing to do so.

KittenKong · 06/09/2021 08:09

I dunno... I heard on the radio yesterday about a female Afghani police woman being shot and murdered by the Taliban (after tying her up and beating her) - she was 7 month pregnant.

And people wang on about “oh put your pronouns on your bio just in case someone, somewhere might feel ‘safe’”.

Meanwhile in the real world...

Janaih · 06/09/2021 08:08

A while ago me and dh were loading up a joe wicks YouTube workout when an advert with Lil Nas X popped up banging on about pronouns. I'll never forget dhs hilariously baffled face Grin "what the hell is he talking about?"
"He's talking bullshit is what".
"Oh right"

I think that's how the majority of people in the real world think.

Datun · 06/09/2021 08:05

I wouldn’t pressure someone into stating their pronouns, although if they said they thought it was pointless/stupid/promoting an ideology I would challenge them on that and seek to have a discussion about it.

As EarthSight asked you Helen Would you be willing to have that little discussion with an employee in the presence of an employment lawyer?

Feelingmardy · 06/09/2021 07:53

*I would very much relish such a discussion with someone who has previously acknowledged that they are speaking from a position of privilege and doesn't really understand the need for sex based rights.

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen*

Shall we kick off a discussion Helen? Genuinely I would be interested to know how, when we live in a world where the atrocities to females (sex-based, nothing to do with identity) such as those currently occurring in Aghanistan, are so commonplace why you think we do not need sex-based protections. Do you not believe in any affirmative action for oppressed groups? How do you try and make sure that your position of privilege is not blinding you to the realities of other people's situations? Do you believe you can talk for all oppressed groups who have experiences which your privilege has protected you from?

Aparallaxia · 06/09/2021 07:36

Haven't had as much fun since Wimbledon reading this thread!

I suspect that being made to state pronouns would count as coerced speech in the US, so no federally-funded institution could enforce it. Some colleagues of mine state their pronouns, but so far no insistence. If I am ever asked I will refuse and try not to go off into a full-throttle GC take-down of this pointless wokery. Gender stereotypes were being slowly, ever so slowly dismantled, and now they've been remade into magical identities that everyone has at least one of and some lucky people have dozens that change every day! You know, like personalities in The Three Faces of Eve, only more of them.

Instead of accepting that sex-based differences exist and doing our best to make them irrelevant to all the other stuff that goes on in society, those differences have simply been pronounced irrelevant and even non-existent while genders and simplistic language revisionism take centre-stage.

Re astrological signs. Attached may amuse (not mine, alas).

Real astrological signs
Unknown author

Aquarius (1/20 - 2/18) You have an inventive mind and are inclined to be progressive. You lie a great deal. On the other hand, you are inclined to be careless and impractical, causing you to make the same mistakes over and over again. People think you are stupid.

Pisces (2/19 - 3/20) You have a vivid imagination and often think you are being followed by the CIA or FBI. You have minor influence over your associates, and people resent you for flaunting your power. You lack confidence and are generally a coward. Pisces people do terrible things to small animals.

Aries (3/21 - 4/19) You are the pioneer type and hold most people in contempt. You are quick tempered, impatient, and scornful of advice. You are not very nice.

Taurus (4/20 - 5/20) You are practical and persistent. You have a dogged determination and work like hell. Most people think you are stubborn and bullheaded. You are a Communist.

Gemini (5/21 - 6/20) You are a quick and intelligent thinker. Most people like you, as you are bisexual. However, you are inclined to expect too much for too little. In other words, you are cheap. Geminis are known for committing incest.

Cancer (6/21 - 7/22) You are sympathetic and understanding to other people's problems. They think you are a sucker. You are always putting things off; that's why you'll never make anything of yourself. Most welfare recipients are Cancer people.

Leo (7/23 - 8/22) You consider yourself a born leader. Others think you are just pushy. Most Leos are bullies. You are vain and dislike honest criticism. Your arrogance is disgusting. Leo people are thieves.

Virgo (8/23 - 9/22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nit-picking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers.

Libra (9/23 - 10/22) You are the artistic type and have a difficult time with reality. If you are a man, you are more than likely gay. Chances for employment and monetary gain are excellent. Most Libra women are good prostitutes. All Libras die of venereal disease.

Scorpio (10/23 - 11/21) You are shrewd in business and cannot be trusted. You will achieve the pinnacle of success because of your total lack of ethics. Most Scorpios are murdered.

Sagittarius (11/22 - 12/21) You are optimistic and enthusiastic. You have a reckless tendency to rely on luck, since you lack talent. The majority of Sagittarians are drunks or dopers. People laugh at you a great deal.

Capricorn (12/22 - 1/19) You are conservative and afraid of taking risks. You don't do much of anything; you are lazy. There has never been a Capricorn of any importance. Capricorns should avoid standing still for too long, as they take root and become trees.

Helen8220 · 06/09/2021 00:38

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I would very much relish such a discussion with someone who has previously acknowledged that they are speaking from a position of privilege and doesn't really understand the need for sex based rights.

Didn’t I offer to have a discussion previously? As far as I recall you weren’t keen.

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