The look at me of pronouns

This is what I sent to our diversity manager when asked to declare my pronouns.

Oh, brava! That's perfect.

[quote Wrongsideofhistorymyarse]This is what I sent to our diversity manager when asked to declare my pronouns.

1. I have experienced a great degree of sexism at work. Bringing attention to my sex increases the likelihood of my being treated differently as a woman as this experiment demonstrates: www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html
2. Singling out a woman’s female status can result in ‘stereotype threat’. hbr.org/2016/08/why-women-feel-more-stress-at-work
3. I hold ‘gender critical’ beliefs, which are protected under the Equality Act and recently confirmed in www.gov.uk/employment-appeal-tribunal-decisions/maya-forstater-v-cgd-europe-and-others-ukeat-slash-0105-slash-20-slash-joj[/quote] Brilliant - thank you for this. I have just copied and pasted for future use.

Yes. I see pronouns on some of my colleagues' emails and know that some are true believers - like the bloke who announces his pronouns are he/him at the start of every meeting - while others don't give it much thought.

Of we don’t say something, the assumption is that it’s all hunky dory. Because a lot of people don’t actually think about it.

KittenKong she said 'ok'. I get the impression she was a bit shocked and just assumes that everyone is on board.

Since Maya's judgement I am openly but politely TERFy at work, and push back where gender is used instead of sex.

What did they say?

This is what I sent to our diversity manager when asked to declare my pronouns.

1. I have experienced a great degree of sexism at work. Bringing attention to my sex increases the likelihood of my being treated differently as a woman as this experiment demonstrates: www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html
2. Singling out a woman’s female status can result in ‘stereotype threat’. hbr.org/2016/08/why-women-feel-more-stress-at-work
3. I hold ‘gender critical’ beliefs, which are protected under the Equality Act and recently confirmed in www.gov.uk/employment-appeal-tribunal-decisions/maya-forstater-v-cgd-europe-and-others-ukeat-slash-0105-slash-20-slash-joj

“Whether they are likely to have been recorded at birth as male or female” - you say you are a lawyer so you’re a reasonably intelligent person, yes? So you do know that there’s no need to use the word “likely” in the sentence I have just quoted. A baby is born, the sex is immediately obvious (I’m not talking about a minuscule percentage of cases where it isn’t obvious) - girl or boy? That’s it. It’s noted every time a baby is born. In the days before 20-week scans, it would have been the first question asked by the mother immediately after delivery - is it a boy or girl? It’s pretty much - health concerns aside - the first question that the wider family and friends ask. And you know this, don’t you?? So stop your faux naivety - it’s doing your (presumed from your professional status) intelligence a huge disservice.

Despite my parents being pretty feminist and anti- gender stereotypes, I inevitably observed and absorbed a huge amount of cultural and societal bias and many powerful expectations about what it means to be a girl or a woman.

So, Helen, reasonably, what do you think a man is doing when he says he identifies as a woman? When he asks everyone to use the she/her pronouns?

He's not actually become someone producing a different gamete. So what, realistically, is he identifying with exactly?

And don't you think, given women's status as a lesser than, it's detrimental to them when you endorse a system which reinforces the "huge amount of cultural and societal bias and many powerful expectations about what it means to be a girl or a woman."

Including the expectation that women should validate men and comply with what they want, despite it disadvantaging them?

Doesn't the conflict in what you think and what you say make your head explode?

I think if challenged at work I'll just keep repeating my name, in 'Groot' style.

Colleague: what are your pronouns ?
Me: My name is ablutiions
Colleague: but we need to know your pronouns so we can address you properly
Me: My name is ablutiions
Colleague: but how will we know what to call you ?
Me: (quizzically) My name is ablutions ?
Colleague : but won't that make your colleagues feel excluded or unsafe
Me: My name is ablutiions (smiles)

Why is it important from a relationship perspective to know someone's sex or gender?

Surely you are better off not making assumptions about people? Treating them on merit

It's useful when you finally meet as it stops people looking around for a man when you are standing in front of them, but that's always a short lived problem

Helen8220 it’s interesting how tentative you are in suggesting you are female:

I have the primary sexual characteristics which generally result from xx chromosomes
...was registered at birth as female
...this idea of myself as a ‘woman’ came to be deeply ingrained in my sense of self
...am used to - and comfortable - being regarded by others as a woman

but at no point do you commit yourself to “I am female” or “I am a woman”.

You are similarly tentative about other people, for example whether they are likely to have been recorded at birth as male or female not “whether they are male or female”.

Do you even accept that people can be a sex, or is it just about how other people perceive them?

I chose a gender neutral name for my Dd for the reason that I didn't want her facing discrimination (or at least a small amount less) and it pisses me off she now has to clarify that she is she/her in professional communications.

Load of bullshit especially when it's something like "Emily-Rose" all long hair and lipstick telling us she's she/her. Of course you bloody are you woke twat

[quote Helen8220]@EarthSight

Also, you still haven't answered my questions (as far as I'm aware), which were -

Why are you 'she/her'?

I have the primary sexual characteristics which generally result from xx chromosomes, and as a result was registered at birth as female, given a name which is typically associated with girls and women, and consistently referred to as ‘she’ or ‘her’, and told that I was a girl. Despite my parents being pretty feminist and anti- gender stereotypes, I inevitably observed and absorbed a huge amount of cultural and societal bias and many powerful expectations about what it means to be a girl or a woman. Over time this idea of myself as a ‘woman’ came to be deeply ingrained in my sense of self. I am not comfortable with (and do not conform to) all of the constituent norms that fed into that concept, but I do conform to a fair number. I am used to - and comfortable - being regarded by others as a woman, and referred to as she or her.

To be unsure of someone's sex, that means that you must feel you are at times able to correctly sex someone. How is it possible to be even be unsure of someone's sex, if sex is all on a spectrum? Wouldn't it then be infinite different shades, where it's not possible to distinguish one from the other? Where there are no binaries?

As many people on MN have observed many times, the vast majority of people have xx or XY chromosomes, and primary sexual characteristics that align with those chromosomes. Their sex is recorded at birth as male or female on the basis of their visible primary sexual characteristics. Most people go on to develop a range of secondary sexual characteristics that align with their primary sexual characteristics, and can often be observed even when a person is clothed. It is therefore possible in many cases to deduce from elements of a person’s appearance or presentation (eg voice) whether they are likely to have been recorded at birth as male or female.

Are you so confident of your positions that you challenge someone on their views in front of their employment lawyer?

Again, I would not raise the subject with someone at work, but if they raised it with me I would enter into a discussion, and if I disagreed with them, I would say so. I would have no problem having that discussion in front of anyone. I am a lawyer and many of the people I interact with on a daily basis are lawyers. We are generally all quite aware of what is and is not appropriate to say in the workplace.[/quote]
You’re being disingenuous here with your use of many/most/a vast number of…etc.

Pretty much by the age of four or so, with a few exceptions, ALL children can tell if a person is male or female. In all my 50-odd years, I have NEVER been in any doubt as to a person’s sex - EVER. Yes, of course I am talking about “sex registered at birth” - there is no other sex. It’s absolutely extraordinary the lengths you go to to make it sound as if NOT being able to tell someone’s sex is actually quite commonplace. I don’t believe it is.

I’m talking about sex, not gender - I don’t believe in the latter. I don’t care how someone “presents” (loving all these new expressions, as if talking about something more important/elevated), people can wear whatever they like, BUT being able to tell someone’s sex is something we learn very quickly as small children. We observe, we absorb…we get it.

So please, please stop this tedious strand of your argument whereby “most” people can tell which sex another person is.

*Why are you 'she/her'?

I have the primary sexual characteristics which generally result from xx chromosomes, and as a result was registered at birth as female, given a name which is typically associated with girls and women, and consistently referred to as ‘she’ or ‘her’, and told that I was a girl. Despite my parents being pretty feminist and anti- gender stereotypes, I inevitably observed and absorbed a huge amount of cultural and societal bias and many powerful expectations about what it means to be a girl or a woman. Over time this idea of myself as a ‘woman’ came to be deeply ingrained in my sense of self. I am not comfortable with (and do not conform to) all of the constituent norms that fed into that concept, but I do conform to a fair number. I am used to - and comfortable - being regarded by others as a woman, and referred to as she or her.*

This is a very coherent reply. For me, though, this just introduces more challenge. I am used to being described as a woman, but I do not wish to imply that in 'preferring' the pronoun woman I also feel that the cultural and societal bias that you feel you have. For me, this is not an identity that fits. If stating a preferred pronoun is a pronouncement such as the one you feel you are making, I am not happy to make that pronouncement. Even if I mean it differently, I think people might well interpret it as you say. Perhaps those people who feel they have been unable to not absorb these stereotypes, or believe that have absorbed them in a way significant enough to identify with them, can state their pronouns and those of us who relate to them differently (perhaps see them as something which should be obliterated rather than lived with) can not be pressurized to 'state our preferred pronouns' given that is inevitably suggesting a relationship with those stereotypes which people who don't wish to state their pronouns don't have.

We are generally all quite aware of what is and is not appropriate to say in the workplace.

Clearly that's not always the case, or law firms would never be taken to tribunals.

Despite my parents being pretty feminist and anti- gender stereotypes, I inevitably observed and absorbed a huge amount of cultural and societal bias and many powerful expectations about what it means to be a girl or a woman.

So if you were suddenly transported to a time or place where, say, women had no right to vote, own property, refuse marriage or go out in public without a man, would you then cease to be known by the pronoun 'she'? Because you hadn't absorbed that cultural and societal bias? Would you identify as something other than a woman in such a society?

TBscrupulouslyF to Helen8220, she did say she would only ‘challenge’ if the person volunteered a reason why they didn’t agree with using preferred pronouns, not if they simply said “no thank you” or similar. I don’t necessarily agree that said challenge would be appropriate, but I don’t think a pile-on on the false premise that she’d take anyone to task for not using such pronouns themselves full stop is appropriate either.

Well if I said no thanks to a pronoun ritual I would not want to discuss it with you as no is the final answer.

@EarthSight

Also, you still haven't answered my questions (as far as I'm aware), which were -

Why are you 'she/her'?

I have the primary sexual characteristics which generally result from xx chromosomes, and as a result was registered at birth as female, given a name which is typically associated with girls and women, and consistently referred to as ‘she’ or ‘her’, and told that I was a girl. Despite my parents being pretty feminist and anti- gender stereotypes, I inevitably observed and absorbed a huge amount of cultural and societal bias and many powerful expectations about what it means to be a girl or a woman. Over time this idea of myself as a ‘woman’ came to be deeply ingrained in my sense of self. I am not comfortable with (and do not conform to) all of the constituent norms that fed into that concept, but I do conform to a fair number. I am used to - and comfortable - being regarded by others as a woman, and referred to as she or her.

To be unsure of someone's sex, that means that you must feel you are at times able to correctly sex someone. How is it possible to be even be unsure of someone's sex, if sex is all on a spectrum? Wouldn't it then be infinite different shades, where it's not possible to distinguish one from the other? Where there are no binaries?

As many people on MN have observed many times, the vast majority of people have xx or XY chromosomes, and primary sexual characteristics that align with those chromosomes. Their sex is recorded at birth as male or female on the basis of their visible primary sexual characteristics. Most people go on to develop a range of secondary sexual characteristics that align with their primary sexual characteristics, and can often be observed even when a person is clothed. It is therefore possible in many cases to deduce from elements of a person’s appearance or presentation (eg voice) whether they are likely to have been recorded at birth as male or female.

Are you so confident of your positions that you challenge someone on their views in front of their employment lawyer?

Again, I would not raise the subject with someone at work, but if they raised it with me I would enter into a discussion, and if I disagreed with them, I would say so. I would have no problem having that discussion in front of anyone. I am a lawyer and many of the people I interact with on a daily basis are lawyers. We are generally all quite aware of what is and is not appropriate to say in the workplace.

The idea that the use of ‘preferred ’ pronouns in a workspace can be divorced from a wider societal context is laughable
This. It isn't a neutral statement. Including pronouns in an email signature, for example, indicates a belief in genderism, and indicates support for the notion that theybies are literally non-women because they say they are.
Non-binary people reinforce the binary by "opting-out" of it. It's peak "not like the other girls".
If I was asked to include my religion or my clothing size on email signatures it would be inappropriate, however preferred pronouns are somehow OK to ask for?
And what does it say if I put "she/her"? Am I agreeing with being labelled "cis"? Am I in agreement with whatever stereotypes genderists attach to femaleness? Does "she/her" mean I agree I like shopping and getting my nails done? What if that's what a man using "she/her" means by it, but not what I mean by it?
And why is it overwhelmingly women who comply with these requests while men ignore them? Female socialisation, "being kind", or just more pressure on women to be compliant?

‘Preferred’ implies an element of choice. Therefore it can change.

I would ‘prefer’ not to be 50 and clapped out. I would prefer not to have health issues. I would prefer not to be harangued by other staff members who are hell bent on dismantling sex based rights by making them irrelevant.

The idea that the use of ‘preferred ’ pronouns in a workspace can be divorced from a wider societal context is laughable

And yes I’d take any suggestion of a ‘discussion’ about it from someone senior ti né about it ti mean “nice job you have there, shame of something happened to it….”

It’s really not a good idea to criticise somebody’s personal beliefs when implementing work place policy.

For comparison “It is company policy that employees shouldn’t signify their religion in their dress” might be discriminatory, but would be much more likely to be regarded as discriminatory if accompanied with a critique of religious belief.

It would be particularly bad to imply that a protected characteristic isn’t recognised.

Neutral and compliant with the law is the best strategy for an employer.