The look at me of pronouns

Well I guess it's a culmination of being born female (a member of the sex which can produce ova) and growing up as a girl. Unfortunately many girls in the global south never reach maturity, such as in places where they are killed for their sex because no one understood that they might not have culminated in being a woman, but a man.

www.e-ir.info/2016/09/09/why-infanticide-happens-almost-exclusively-to-girls-and-not-boys/

Enjoy your luxury beliefs, Helen and be glad you grew up somewhere you could pontificate about your identity beliefs to your heart's content.

Great post, merrymouse.

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.

That is a wonderfully cryptic answer. I'm really curious what events and what the various definitions are.

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition,

Pretty much? On which definition are you not a woman, Helen?

I prefer Chinese astrological signs myself...

I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes

It’s 1924. A 25 year older woman says that ‘because of a culmination of events’ she isn’t a woman so should be able to vote. Does it work?

It’s 1964. A woman has been raped and tells herself that because of a culmination of events she isn’t a woman and so can’t possibly be pregnant. Does it work?

It’s 2003. A woman receives a diagnosis of ovarian cancer. Surely she might be cured if a culmination of events can mean that she isn’t a woman?

It’s 2021. A woman in Afghanistan insists that because of a culmination of events she is actually a man and should be able to travel unaccompanied. Is she believed?

Do you see how little any of this is linked to identity? Do you see why we need language to talk about material realities?

In contrast you are talking about an identity that you personally feel is more masculine or feminine because of cultural stereotypes. It feels as though you are sharing your star sign.

[quote Helen8220]@HipTightOnions

it’s interesting how tentative you are in suggesting you are female

You are similarly tentative about other people, for example whether they are likely to have been recorded at birth as male or female not “whether they are male or female”.

Do you even accept that people can be a sex, or is it just about how other people perceive them?

I was consciously trying to describe the situation in a purely factual and objective way, without presupposing the meaning of terms like ‘woman’. I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.[/quote]
Being a woman isn’t a culmination of anything, and it doesn’t “follow inevitably” from your chromosomes - you ARE a woman. It’s a fact. It’s not an opinion/ judgement/criticism/point of view - it’s a FACT, in the same way that the earth revolves around the sun - a FACT, not an opinion.

Thank you for returning to this thread. I’d be really grateful if you could reply to my previous post regarding your use of language.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee
This is a very coherent reply. For me, though, this just introduces more challenge. I am used to being described as a woman, but I do not wish to imply that in 'preferring' the pronoun woman I also feel that the cultural and societal bias that you feel you have. For me, this is not an identity that fits. If stating a preferred pronoun is a pronouncement such as the one you feel you are making, I am not happy to make that pronouncement. Even if I mean it differently, I think people might well interpret it as you say. Perhaps those people who feel they have been unable to not absorb these stereotypes, or believe that have absorbed them in a way significant enough to identify with them, can state their pronouns and those of us who relate to them differently (perhaps see them as something which should be obliterated rather than lived with) can not be pressurized to 'state our preferred pronouns' given that is inevitably suggesting a relationship with those stereotypes which people who don't wish to state their pronouns don't have.

That sounds like a very fair and reasonable position. I don’t think stating preferred pronouns necessarily indicates the extent to which a person complies or feels comfortable with gender norms, but I appreciate that’s a reason why someone might not want to do it.

@OnlyTheLangOfTheTitberg
TBscrupulouslyF to Helen8220, she did say she would only ‘challenge’ if the person volunteered a reason why they didn’t agree with using preferred pronouns, not if they simply said “no thank you” or similar. I don’t necessarily agree that said challenge would be appropriate, but I don’t think a pile-on on the false premise that she’d take anyone to task for not using such pronouns themselves full stop is appropriate either.

Belated thanks for this

I was consciously trying to describe the situation in a purely factual and objective way, without presupposing the meaning of terms like ‘woman’. I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.

Are you an adult female human? If so, you're a woman. That's about as factual and objective as it gets.

@HipTightOnions

it’s interesting how tentative you are in suggesting you are female

You are similarly tentative about other people, for example whether they are likely to have been recorded at birth as male or female not “whether they are male or female”.

Do you even accept that people can be a sex, or is it just about how other people perceive them?

I was consciously trying to describe the situation in a purely factual and objective way, without presupposing the meaning of terms like ‘woman’. I am a woman, on pretty much any definition, but I think that is the culmination of a series of events, rather than something that followed inevitably from my chromosomes.

I believe she got it wrong on social media with a person with a beard - and she quickly retracted when she caught herself (was that the one?).

In the Maya case, she did use colleagues' chosen pronouns.
I think that not using a colleague's pronouns when your employer instructs you to do so might not end well.
That's not my ideology - just pointing the issue out. Judges in court are instructing victims to use the defendant's chosen pronouns, fgs.

I'd have no problem using people's CHOSEN pronouns at work, as opposed to the pronouns provided by the language that have served for 100s of years, because the only people I see choosing to choose and emphasize said choice are men choosing he/him or women choosing she/her so luckily, the 2 dovetail quite nicely

It's not my ideology.

At work I would try to avoid using any pronouns in the person’s earshot. I imagine though that the truth would accidentally slip out. After all, I’ve 40-odd years as a native English speaker so of course I’m going to instinctively use my own language to correctly describe what I see. It would be an interesting tribunal for someone dismissed for this scenario.
Outside of work no I wouldn’t use untrue pronouns. I don’t share your ideology- why would I use its language?

And no one has the right to dictate how they are spoken about when they aren’t even present. So oppressed aren’t they!

I don’t believe in gender identity ideology so I won’t take part in this silly game where I’m meant to play pretend. It’s against my moral compass to participate in a lie.

Going along with the idea that a male can be a she or that there is such a thing as non-binary when we all every last one of us know it’s not real is not something I’m prepared to do.

But funnily... a news headline from today from the Indy (couldn’t do a link to the page):

“Police launch search for naked man wearing latex mask spotted ‘staring at traffic’”

And what was my first thought? ‘How did they know it was a man’ 🤣

This is getting ridiculous...

So I finally got a piece of work yesterday I’d been waiting for from a contractor. Sheher (no surprise, sheher has blue hair) took two months to complete it (it should have taken a day max). I am not happy.

I won’t use this person again because I have had to firefight my clients over this delay. Maybe focus on doing your sodding job?

So people with diversity managers... I’d love to see their job descriptions and also the breakdown of their job with regards to all the groups on the EA. I really would (and how much they get paid and then CBA for their position)