The look at me of pronouns

I'm in England I received an email from my local town museum, which is owned and run by the council.

The museum assistant, who had an obviously female name, had she/her after her name. First time I've ever seen this.

I was SOOOOO tempted to reply "Dear Judith she/her, thank you for your email....."

Please, please tell me what is the point of Judith emphasising that she is someone I should refer to as "her".

What has this got to do with trans people? If Judith was, say, a transwomen, I would not know that from the email.

So what's the purpose of it?

how can I put on my pronouns when I don't have a gender identity?

@Itsinthetreesitscoming I used that once and someone said 'Oh, so you just use your name then, like without any pronouns at all' and 'so are you 'they' then?'.

I had to explain to them that the whole gender identity thing belongs to an ideology I don't subscribe to about my own identity. Therefore why would I frame my identity using their terms and methodology?

I'm lucky enough to live in The North so I've never seen it IRL.

If I see pronouns at the end of an email I cringe. It seems so unprofessional. It's like signing off with 'SingingSands/I love cats/my favourite colour is purple' nobody gives a flying fuck.

It really is the most ridiculous new age shite

[quote DucksFlyTogether]@Earthsight I genuinely don't think the HR team like it/support it. Loads of people have refused and they have just gone ok.

Because I and other members pointed out. We have as much right not to express ourselves to the same extent as those who want to express themselve. Other people's want to "throw it out there" doesn't trump our right to privacy. I mean that's equality....[/quote]
Yes, this, 100%. Pronouns on my email signature is the hill I will die on at work if it's ever demanded - how can I put on my pronouns when I don't have a gender identity?

There are a few people in my work who have started using pronouns in signatures, some of whom I really respected, and now I just can't understand why they have fallen for this. It's pretty much all young women who do so as well - interestingly none of the senior male managers feel the need

I genuinely feel I'm lucky with my employer, they are wonderful and really believe in giving women voices.

We have a female CEO and 70% of the staff are female.

So when we speak up, we are genuinely heard and listened to.

@EarthSight: thanks for the advice , its really helpful!

We have as much right not to express ourselves to the same extent as those who want to express themselve. Other people's want to "throw it out there" doesn't trump our right to privacy. I mean that's equality....

You’d think that would be glaringly obvious, wouldn’t you?

@Earthsight I genuinely don't think the HR team like it/support it. Loads of people have refused and they have just gone ok.

Because I and other members pointed out. We have as much right not to express ourselves to the same extent as those who want to express themselve. Other people's want to "throw it out there" doesn't trump our right to privacy. I mean that's equality....

@DucksFlyTogether

When HR said why, I said because I don't want to, I find it frivolous and attention seeking for a woman with a very well known women's name to be shouting at the end of e-mails I'm a she/her. Look at me! They just said ok.

Bloodyhell that was brave. She should not have asked you why as that put you in a difficult position. Also, your response could have landed you in hot water so the fact that she backed off with no further repercussions suggest your view might be the majority view at your company, or that HR doesn't like asking people to do it either. Can't imagine saying that response if you worked at somewhere like the BBC.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to see your previous posting history before I believe that.

Are you sure you know what gender they are?

Again, I'm going to need to see a long posting history here on Mumsnet before I believe you're gender critical after you said this.

Or an email from Wei or Xiang. Are you sure you know what gender they are? So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

Secondly, very few women here would loose sleep over the possibility they might offend someone in this particular instance. There is a magical thing called 'Google' these days. If I truly was in any doubt, I would do a quick search on it and just make my guess on that. There are some names that are used for both sexes, but most names aren't like that.

Used in the context of email signatures, is is not simply an indication of one's sex. It's far more complicated than simply saying 'hey I'm a woman, just letting you know my pronouns in case you don't know'. Using pronouns signals that you believe in a certain ideology about your own identity (unless one is truly uninformed about the matter). People should have the right to not be ok with that.

Even if it were that simply, no one should be coerced into emphasising their sex in this way,

You might argue that you don’t NEED to know the sex or gender of the person on the other end of an email, but from a relationship-building perspective, it’s important

In the vast majority of cases, it's not important at all, especially if it's communication over email. In real life, yes, I might want to know their sex in certain situations, but gender.......only a small minority of people are intent on making it important for absolutely everyone. I sympathise with them, but I'm not going to go along with things I don't feel comfortable with or don't believe in.

I refused in work, I have a very obvious feminine name. Think Laura/Clare/Sophie.

When HR said why, I said because I don't want to, I find it frivolous and attention seeking for a woman with a very well known women's name to be shouting at the end of e-mails I'm a she/her. Look at me! They just said ok.

However the young lad in the office aged 20 thought it would be funny to put Tit/Twat as his. This went unnoticed for 2 weeks 😂

If I made a mistake I would expect to be corrected, but I wouldn't expect somebody to be deeply offended. People have been making mistakes about people called Alex and Dr Smiths for a long time. It isn't a big deal.

My preference is to be referred to by my name. If needed, I will add my job title. If pressed, I will use my title (Dr).

I have no intention of ever announcing my pronouns (or my ethnicity, age, sexuality or political stance) in a work email and hope more people realise this trend undermines the progress women have made in advancing women's rights.

[quote EarthSight]@WeeBisom If she genuinely feels unsafe, I suggest she doesn't go on the trip......but we all know she probably will, because she doesn't feel unsafe. She probably feels insecurity that you have refused to fawn on her.

I would just tell her that you hope to continue to be her friend, that your understand she feels more comfortable using different pronouns, but you can't believe in things you don't believe in. It's like insisting that just because someone is planning to become a priest, you must now as their friend believe in God. You might be willing to use the title Vicar, but you should not feel pressured to also convert to Christianity so they can feel more validated and secure in their new identity.[/quote]
That is the best explanation of how to handle the whole pronoun nonsense that I've ever come across, thank you :)

That has nothing to do with why people are using pronouns.

So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

Why would it cause offence? I often receive letters/emails addressed to ‘Mr Smith’ because my first name is actually a male nickname. I just say haha no I’m named after my grandfather. It doesn’t offend.

@WeeBisom If she genuinely feels unsafe, I suggest she doesn't go on the trip......but we all know she probably will, because she doesn't feel unsafe. She probably feels insecurity that you have refused to fawn on her.

I would just tell her that you hope to continue to be her friend, that your understand she feels more comfortable using different pronouns, but you can't believe in things you don't believe in. It's like insisting that just because someone is planning to become a priest, you must now as their friend believe in God. You might be willing to use the title Vicar, but you should not feel pressured to also convert to Christianity so they can feel more validated and secure in their new identity.

Hmm. I’m pretty gender critical, but I don’t mind this. If I’m emailing back and forth with Alex McStranger, or Sandy, Chris etc OR an Asian name - for instance Harpreet is a male, Jaspreet is a female, but would you definitely have known that? Or an email from Wei or Xiang. Are you sure you know what gender they are? So sure that you are positive you won’t cause offence when you refer to “her” in a cc’d email?

You DON’T always know. Equally, does my fictional Xiang know whether the Sam she is referring to is a man or a woman?

So it might be slightly silly from a gender identity perspective (which is probably how many are using it), especially if your name is Manly McBrawny, but more broadly, it’s very useful. You might argue that you don’t NEED to know the sex or gender of the person on the other end of an email, but from a relationship-building perspective, it’s important.

I’m in favour.

I received a letter from someone at the BBC with their pronouns. I wrote a letter back expressing my concern at the impression that made on me and how their ideology had the potential to have an adverse impact on how they did their job.

One of my friends (in her early thirties) has just come out as non binary.And my response was to shrug and say “I don’t give a shit. Makes no difference to me.” But apparently this is the wrong response and now she feels “unsafe” around me because I’m not validating her identity. I’m supposed to be going on a trip with her soon and I’m dreading it because she has made it clear she wants me to publicly state that her non binary identity is “valid” and that I respect it . She is also apparently plagued with anxiety that I don’t really believe in her identity (she knows that I’m gender critical). What on earth am I supposed to do? Apparently just using her pronouns isn’t enough (she hasn’t changed her pronouns to they: them, she feels more “comfortable” with she/ her). I’m supposed to now actually recite the mantra as an article of faith. I swear, I sometimes feel like thomas more confronted with Henry 8’s demands to sign the oath that Henry was the supreme head of the church!

Think of it like Agadoo - an irritating ear worm that will drop out of fashion.