Page 14 | The look at me of pronouns

Ritascornershop · 2021-09-01T17:14:30+00:00

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant. The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”. I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions. Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

KittenKong · 02/09/2021 11:59

@Feelingmardy

It’s a protected belief system surely?

Sex is a protected characteristic under the equalities act. Announcing of pronouns is, in my opinion at least (and I know I am not alone) indirect discrimination as it puts women at a disadvantage given evidence of changes (not positive for women) in how others interact with you when they know you are female.

Oh I meant telling people to shove it where the sun doesn’t shine. It is a genuine belief I hold most dearly.

ProudAlly · 02/09/2021 11:58

@merrymouse

proudally if in your social circle it’s usual to announce pronouns you should of course go ahead and do it, just as in sime social circles it’s normal to know where to sit a marchioness at dinner.

However, you are mistaken if you think it makes people in general feel more comfortable.

Not social circles. This is my company's position.

ProudAlly · 02/09/2021 11:57

@sonarl nope.

Feelingmardy · 02/09/2021 11:56

It’s a protected belief system surely?

Sex is a protected characteristic under the equalities act. Announcing of pronouns is, in my opinion at least (and I know I am not alone) indirect discrimination as it puts women at a disadvantage given evidence of changes (not positive for women) in how others interact with you when they know you are female.

EarthSight · 02/09/2021 11:53

@KittenKong It might be, but in reality, an honest response might make an employee a target - someone to watch. People who are very high up in a company with a lot of support might be able to have an open conversation about it, but in the current political climate, I would caution anyone who's on a low wage, on contracts, or in their 20s or 30s, to be careful how they words things and what they say. I would keep conversation it to a minimum unless really pressed.

They can still resist it, but even though their 'beliefs' are protected, some companies will want to stamp out any signs of rebellion. In extreme circumstances, an employee could be frozen out or be punished in other ways. If they're dismissed, not many people have the time, confidence, resources or energy to challenge unfair dismissal, and companies know that.

Feelingmardy · 02/09/2021 11:52

@ProudAlly

My company encourages us to add our preferred pronouns to our email signatures and when meeting new colleagues to say "My name is ProudAlly and my preferred pronouns are she / her / hers, what's your name?" Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to. If that's true then I don't have a problem with it. I'm in favour of being inclusive.

But this is not inclusive. It's not inclusive of anyone who does not believe that regressive sex-based stereotypes are any other than a social construction which has the effect of oppressing females. It's what some very binary thinkers want, but that's not inclusivity.

EarthSight · 02/09/2021 11:46

@ProudAlly

My company encourages us to add our preferred pronouns to our email signatures and when meeting new colleagues to say "My name is ProudAlly and my preferred pronouns are she / her / hers, what's your name?" Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to. If that's true then I don't have a problem with it. I'm in favour of being inclusive.

@ProudAlly That's cool for them, but we don't make people introduce their sexuality when they first meet people, with good reason, and this should be no different. It's a highly personal issue and not even many gender questioning people would appreciate this kind of deceleration or probing. It's not as kind as what people think.

merrymouse · 02/09/2021 11:45

proudally if in your social circle it’s usual to announce pronouns you should of course go ahead and do it, just as in sime social circles it’s normal to know where to sit a marchioness at dinner.

However, you are mistaken if you think it makes people in general feel more comfortable.

KittenKong · 02/09/2021 11:44

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

Its rife here in the UK too. I have to gag myself in case the words "take your pronouns and fuck off" accidentally fly out of my mouth.

It’s a protected belief system surely?

EarthSight · 02/09/2021 11:44

@RocketPanda

Our point about star signs is they mean absolutely nothing. Most people think the time of year of your birth dictating your personality is utter tosh. Very like pronouns. Meaningless drivel.

Although I often think about making public an email sent from head office advising my particular office about our names. I come from an Irish speaking area of Ireland as do most of my colleagues and therefore our names are in Irish. The translation denotes my sex ( Mary Daughter of Smith for example). Apparently we should have English names that are easier to pronounce and not triggering to those who are gender diverse. This coming from a British company does not come across well at all.

God your company must be really culturally dim to ask that @rocketpanda. Not surprised one bit though.

Shehasadiamondinthesky · 02/09/2021 11:42

Its rife here in the UK too. I have to gag myself in case the words "take your pronouns and fuck off" accidentally fly out of my mouth.

KittenKong · 02/09/2021 11:40

They never wanted to be an Ally before did they? And they never want to be a LGB ally...

Funny how a bit of PR, a brand makeover and corporate sponsorship can make all the difference.

merrymouse · 02/09/2021 11:38

the way you wish to be addressed, your sex, how to pro

Oops…

your sex, how to pronounce your name, the polite thing to do is simply correct them. There is nothing new about this.

Sonarl · 02/09/2021 11:37

@ProudAlly

My company encourages us to add our preferred pronouns to our email signatures and when meeting new colleagues to say "My name is ProudAlly and my preferred pronouns are she / her / hers, what's your name?" Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to. If that's true then I don't have a problem with it. I'm in favour of being inclusive.

This is a parody post right?

EarthSight · 02/09/2021 11:36

@FrancescaContini

People who feel “unsafe” when “the wrong pronouns “ are used

- how ON EARTH do they cope if there’s a REAL emergency to deal with? A fire? Someone behaving in a verbally or physically threatening way? Broken down at night by the side of the motorway? A colleague has a heart attack in front of them?? Etc etc…

How does this generation (because I know that it’s the young ‘uns using it) actually manage to cross a road or talk to someone they don’t know??

@FrancescaContini I think you know the answer already - most of these people don't feel unsafe at all. They might feel uncomfortable maybe that someone has dared to disagree with them, but that isn't the same as feeling unsafe.

They are completely capitalising on the fact that declaring yourself unsafe instantly makes an opposing party back down. It's a way of emotionally manoeuvring someone into a position - a dominance tactic that makes the real oppressor look like a victim, when in fact it might be the complete opposite. I makes a complete mockery of people who really do need to use the word 'unsafe', and it a method that teenagers pick-up very quickly from indulgent adult who teach them this technique.

I can't stand people like that. Usually they are sly, highly manipulative and I give them a wide berth. It's the same type of people who lie and sabotage others, often covertly, and when exposed, will burst into tears and make their victim look like a bully. As I said - avoid!

merrymouse · 02/09/2021 11:36

Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to.

Or it suggests that you can’t tell from their presentation and name whether they are a man or a woman, or it suggests that you are heavily invested in stereotypes and will others accordingly.

When talking to somebody the correct pronouns are ‘I’, ‘me’ or ‘you’. If somebody misunderstands anything about you - the way you wish to be addressed, your sex, how to pro

EarthSight · 02/09/2021 11:28

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Our diversity manager assumed my pronouns and put them in a newsletter. I asked her not to do so in future, explained that I'm gender critical and cited Maya Forstater's judgement.

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse Ouch. That's so bad, and sometimes I wonder if it's deliberate trolling.Of course, everyone guess pronouns (based on biology) but guessing someone's gender????? What the fuck is that? How presumptuous! We really are going back to stereotypes with this.

KittenKong · 02/09/2021 11:28

What a load of cobblers. Ally to whom exactly?

countrygirl99 · 02/09/2021 11:28

If I'm ever in a position where I have to.state pronouns I shall insist on Hän/Hänen and let them work it out. If someone can look at me, see my definitely female name and not work out I'm a her they aren't worth bothering about.

ProudAlly · 02/09/2021 11:27

My company encourages us to add our preferred pronouns to our email signatures and when meeting new colleagues to say "My name is ProudAlly and my preferred pronouns are she / her / hers, what's your name?" Their explanation is that this will make others feel more comfortable in stating their preferred pronouns, if they want to. If that's true then I don't have a problem with it. I'm in favour of being inclusive.

KittenKong · 02/09/2021 11:25

Everyone is entitled to feel safe - but why is it purely those who are actually in no physical danger??? Panic buttons in lecture halls, dial a snitch police numbers for ‘thoughts’, arggggggg

EarthSight · 02/09/2021 11:23

@Feelingmardy

I don’t feel safe around people who wail ‘I feel unsaaaaaaaaafe!’ every two minutes about things that shouldn’t make any sane person feel... ‘unsafe’. I assume they are unstable and possibly likely to lash out if disagreed with.

Agree and I genuinely feel unsafe in a world which does not recognise sex-based oppression. So who's feeling safe are we going to prioritise?

@feelingmardy Indeed. It seems everyone is entitled to feel safe these days.......except for women when they're talking about sex-based rights.

EarthSight · 02/09/2021 11:21

@Atmywitsend29

See it all the time on IG, I refuse to fill out that stupid box.

A friend of mine was telling me her workplace (an NHS trust) were going down the route of making it mandatory to add your pronouns to your email

@Atmywitsend29 That's a big mistake. It makes people say they believe in something that they don't. Also, if I were gender questioning, I wouldn't want to be forced into either lying or disclosing my feelings before I was ready. We don't force people to disclose their sexuality, and this should be no different.

KittenKong · 02/09/2021 11:09

When asked to do things at work that wander into such territory, I ask for the business case proposition - in writing with full CBA. Gotta keep it professional...

Regularsizedrudy · 02/09/2021 11:06

Lots of people feel like they can’t! And don’t want the hassle or don’t have the words to articulate why they don’t want to