The look at me of pronouns

Thank you, some helpful ideas there (although we don’t conflate our own women’s network with ‘gender’, except when discussing how gender stereotypes disadvantage us and how we can overcome them).

Oh yes, and a really interesting talk on endometriosis and adenomyosis, including experiences of how supportive (or not) managers and the organisation generally have been regarding the need for time off

What kind of events does the network supporting women put on? I’m looking for some ideas for my own workplace.*

*for the avoidance of confusion I’m referring to born women, who are often discriminated against on the basis of their sex, which is a protected characteristic under the EA2010 - unlike gender identity.

The gender network (which supports all staff on issues relating to sex and gender) had organised events on confidence building aimed primarily at women, in light of evidence that women on average tend to feel less confident in interviews, asking for promotions, challenging inappropriate behaviour in the workplace. Events on flexible working and balancing child care and work (some focused on women, some focused on men - there have been some really interesting panel discussions on experiences of shared parental leave). Informal discussions in the wake of the murder of Sarah Everard, about the emotional impact of the incident and our own experiences of feeling or being unsafe, and what more men could do to help.

I wonder if they have access for those with disabilities. Do they provide BSL translators or have adapted computers for those with sight problems. Do they allow days off for women if they have crippling periods, or compassion leave should they miscarry? Do they allow flexible working patterns for those who have family responsibilities (children or elders?).

Do they do any of the above - which lets face or, isn’t as pretty as a rainbow flag or small cute child with face paint and costs money?

THIS is inclusion - it helps people work. I don’t give two hoots what anyone’s sexual orientation, religion or show size is. If they can do the job then that’s fine. It’s what they are there for. It’s not a crèche.

*for the avoidance of confusion I’m referring to born women, who are often discriminated against on the basis of their sex, which is a protected characteristic under the EA2010 - unlike gender identity.

I'm lucky enough to own my own business so this bs is my decision and I don't wish to add my pronouns, so won't.

Om the other hand, people who call wanting the owner frequently ask for Mr Innocent. I haven't died yet, I simply correct them.

Far preferable to the obnoxious twat who called me "my good woman". I debated telling him I identify as male for a moment but couldn't be bothered. Decided on "fuck off " instead.

In my workplace I don’t think it’s really an issue - women are over represented at most levels, and equally represented at the top level (and in fact our top person is a woman), and reports of sex/gender based discrimination are low.

Good for you. Perhaps you are aware that there are other workplaces?

And Iran. I’m often called ‘he’ - and readers, I have not died yet.

They have no gendered pronouns in Indonesia. Do you think that means there is no sexism?

because surveys show they are more likely to face discrimination now than gay or lesbian colleagues.

In what sense? What is this discrimination that they face that isn't for being same sex attracted as part of their sexuality? And what discrimination do "non binary" people face, exactly?

Those types of meetings tend to have a higher than average proportion of people attending who you couldn’t reliably guess their pronouns.

Oh I bet you could reliably guess their sex.

They used to have unisex pronouns in Chinese, but made the decision to change it in, I think, the 1920s or so. The pronouns still sound the same, but are written differently for men and women.

The only way, in your world, to eliminate that, is to disguise everybody. Which doesn't tackle any of it.

Why does it follow from the fact that a person is born without a penis that they should be referred to in a particular way, different from those born with penises?

Blimey. Females aren't born "without a penis". I can't think of a more reductive way to describe us frankly.

We are not being referred to as different to men, we are being referred to as one of two equal human sexes. You are investing "she" as being "different" to the normal "he" in the way you write about it.

Perhaps we live on different planets.

It’s the way our language is, and it’s the same for many languages. You may not like it, but that’s tough. That’s life.

Correction - female colleague's work signature

There's a wealth of evidence about women being sexually discriminated in the workplace and women with 'gender neutral' names have reported that they are treated differently when the person they are interacting with becomes aware that they are a woman. Earlier in this thread, I posted a link to an article written by a man who mistakenly sent out emails with his female work signature attached who was shocked at how differently he was treated.

Sexual discrimination is also massively under- reported as women don't want to make a fuss, jeopardise their employment or think that's just 'how it is' in that environment.

There was research mentioned on here a while ago where it was shown that if women are reminded that they are women before a test or examination, they perform differently.

But you know, it's only women right?

What has caused this huge, societal shift whereby sexuality has to be DISCUSSED in the workplace?

If you are a woman, you will have been referred to as she since the moment you were born

True, and I think this is part of the problem. Why does it follow from the fact that a person is born without a penis that they should be referred to in a particular way, different from those born with penises? I just don’t see why it’s necessary. If we got rid of gendered pronouns surely that would help reduce sex/gender based discrimination.

Well luckily I work in an organisation that thinks it’s important to foster an inclusive environment for everyone, and people involved in the networks (LGBT+, gender, race, disability and others) work very hard - often in their personal time - organising events that help people to understand the experiences of those who are different from them.

I don’t understand why you need to announce your sexuality in the context of a work meeting. Don’t you just go to work…to work?? Why is anyone interested in what their colleagues choose to do in private, outside work and with whom?

Well, it’s obviously important that people generally feel comfortable to be open in the workplace as far as they want to regarding, eg, if they have a same sex partner. I’ve heard from gay and lesbian colleagues who are a bit older (eg in their 50s) who did not always feel able to be ‘out’ at work, and how that distanced them from their colleagues and made work a less happy place to be.

The reason we (ie the LGBT+ network) hold events specifically to allow people to talk about their experiences as being bisexual, non-binary etc is because surveys show they are more likely to face discrimination now than gay or lesbian colleagues.

As I said, this is in the context of meetings related to the LGBT+ network, for example there was one recently specifically focused on people with non-binary sexuality or gender - eg bisexual or pansexual, and non-binary or gender queer. Those types of meetings tend to have a higher than average proportion of people attending who you couldn’t reliably guess their pronouns.

It astonishing that people at work have time to waste sitting around in a special meeting to explain their personal take on grammer. It's no wonder diversity and inclusion is held in such contempt.