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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The look at me of pronouns

461 replies

Ritascornershop · 01/09/2021 18:14

Recently I’ve had two interactions that have startled me. One was with legal aid (I’m in Canada) where the young lawyer rang me and said “Hello this is Thomas from xx, my practice is x and my pronouns are he/him.” Just in case I thought someone with a male voice and whose name was Thomas might like me, when speaking to him, to refer to him in the third person as she/her. I laughed and pointed out that as I was speaking directly to him, his pronouns wouldn’t be relevant.

The other interaction was after I’d written my member of parliament’s office asking for an answer on something I couldn’t get a Ministry to answer me on. 3 months later I finally got a reply suggesting I contact that Ministry 🙄 and signing off “Benjamin Lastname, he/him, Useless Twat, Your MP’s office”.

I replied telling him it was useless information that should not have taken 3 months to cough up, and I didn’t care what his pronouns were and I wasn’t going to proffer mine as doing so for women tended to increase sexism in professional interactions.

Is this as rampant in the UK? It just seems so unprofessional and so “look at me!” I’ve no interest in how they hope people refer to them when they’re not there, I just want answers to my questions that they are qualified to provide.

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EmmaGrundyForPM · 17/09/2021 03:38

We have a new senior manager at work. I had an email from her last week which said "My preferred pronouns are she/her and my preferred title is Mrs". I can't think of the last time I saw someone at work use a title in their email. I was appalled as that really is a step backwards given that mens titles have nothing. to do with their marital status whereas women's do.

CoolStoryBruh · 17/09/2021 00:56

Ridiculous

OchonAgusOchonOh · 17/09/2021 00:41

@Waitwhat23

Stonewall have this page - www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/international-pronouns-day which has a link to the YourPronouns website at the bottom of the page. www.mypronouns.org/ There's a fairly extensive list of pronouns listed there as examples as well as links to explanatory websites regarding neopronouns www.mypronouns.org/how

Stonewall are endorsing a wide range of gender neutral pronouns as 'valid' (quoting their website), including neopronouns. As a company who is part of the Stonewall diversity scheme, it seems rather inconsistent that your company is not following their 'inclusive' advice.

A person could be a man or a woman or both or neither and share any number of these sets of pronouns as the correct ones to use for them, but which set they go by is not necessarily indicative of their gender, even though for most people there is an association between the pronouns they go by and the gender they are.

My head hurts after reading that. How on earth can you be both man and woman or neither man or woman?

Waitwhat23 · 17/09/2021 00:38

@whatiswrongwithmyknee the next bit on that page is even worse -

'A person could be a man or a woman or both or neither and share any number of these sets of pronouns as the correct ones to use for them, but which set they go by is not necessarily indicative of their gender, even though for most people there is an association between the pronouns they go by and the gender they are.'

How many pronouns can one person possibly go by? Though didn't Halsey get really annoyed with a magazine who didn't use equal and alternating uses of the pronouns she and they? (also detailed as an option on that pronouns webite).

What I don't understand (genuinely) is how people have the time for all this. When I've worked in large offices, I've frequently forgotten people's names, let alone remembering their chosen pronouns. I really would have to carry around a cheat sheet just to keep on top of it, lest I be accused of 'transphobia' rather than someone with their own shit going on.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 17/09/2021 00:20

@Waitwhat23

I looked at that pronoun site you shared. It's bloody awful. It says:

A person could be transgender or not transgender (also called “cisgender” - the vast majority of the population is cisgender)

So there's no option other than trans or cis and they are stating, with no supporting evidence, that the majority of people are cis. To be cis you have to have a gender identity which matches your birth sex but as most people do not have a gender identity, it cannot match. So the vast majority of people are in fact neither trans nor cis. If they can't get that right, it does make you wonder whether you should both paying attention to everything else they say.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 17/09/2021 00:05

I know @Waitwhat23 and I'm not disagreeing with you. If we let people decide for themselves what is acceptable (which is the only sensible position if we have preferred pronouns) then we could end up with millions of pronouns. Which makes them irrelevant. Perhaps I can solve the box ticking dilemma by short-cutting this and saying my preferred pronouns are 'whatiswrong' and 'withmyknee' which quite frankly is an awful lot more comfortable that ticking a box which effectively gives people permission to think of me like a 1950s housewife.

334bu · 17/09/2021 00:05

Great clip . Not quite sure if I should laugh or cry thoughConfused

Waitwhat23 · 17/09/2021 00:01

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Additionally, if someone really identifies with a particular, more unusual pronoun, is denying them the right to use it (if it's not on the list you get to choose from) really acceptable? Is that not denying them the right to 'bring their whole/true self to work'?

I see where you're coming from but will this not end up in a situation where so many pronouns are being used that it actually makes more sense just to always call someone by their actual name? If there are as many pronouns as people, doesn't that invalidate the whole concept of a pronoun?

I was pointing out the inconsistency rather than calling for the use of an increasingly large number of pronouns. My point was - who decides what is acceptable? If people truly believe that preferred pronouns increases inclusivity and that people are transphobic for questioning it, how can they say some are fine and others not? Especially if it explicitly goes against what Stonewall say and particularly if their company is part of the Stonewall Diversity Champion scheme.
Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2021 23:56

Someone just sent me this Grin light relief. It's Friday tomorrow at least

twitter.com/TheBabylonBee/status/1438238693869957122?s=20

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2021 23:50

Stonewall have this page - www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/news/international-pronouns-day which has a link to the YourPronouns website at the bottom of the page. www.mypronouns.org/ There's a fairly extensive list of pronouns listed there as examples as well as links to explanatory websites regarding neopronouns www.mypronouns.org/how

Stonewall are endorsing a wide range of gender neutral pronouns as 'valid' (quoting their website), including neopronouns. As a company who is part of the Stonewall diversity scheme, it seems rather inconsistent that your company is not following their 'inclusive' advice.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 16/09/2021 23:49

Additionally, if someone really identifies with a particular, more unusual pronoun, is denying them the right to use it (if it's not on the list you get to choose from) really acceptable? Is that not denying them the right to 'bring their whole/true self to work'?

I see where you're coming from but will this not end up in a situation where so many pronouns are being used that it actually makes more sense just to always call someone by their actual name? If there are as many pronouns as people, doesn't that invalidate the whole concept of a pronoun?

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 16/09/2021 23:46

Actually this happens a fair bit. Take the word ‘disinterested’, which correctly means unbiased or not partisan. It has been so commonly misunderstood to mean the same as ‘uninterested’ that the old meaning has almost fallen out of usage and it is now pretty much accepted that it can be used to mean uninterested, because of that misunderstanding.

So are you acknowledging that the definition of woman that you propose is a change of definition? If not, how is this relevant? Yes some words have changed meaning over time. I believe criticize is another example. That does not suggest that we should consciously change the meaning of 'woman' to suit a minorities interests.

Just because it’s a concept that’s a bit fuzzy around the edges doesn’t mean it’s not useful.

Again, I don't see what point you are trying to make here? Yes there is fuzziness around many concepts. But that is irrelevant to this conversation which is not about fuzziness at the edges but a massive blob of confused ideology at the centre. For it to be a 'fuzzy edges' issue we'd need to start with a definition of the way you want to use the word 'woman'. But no-one is willing to provide one. Why is that?

I don’t think most of the issues you mention are caused by stating preferred pronouns, they’re caused by the fact that the gender binary is embedded in our language, alongside lots of beliefs and assumptions about men and women

I think you're making my point here. The gender binary you mention is created and perpetuated by the beliefs and assumptions made about men and women. It does not, and cannot exist outside of those assumptions - which you state to be 'alongside' the concept of gender. I agree that it's alongside. To accept your point of view we'd have to see it as central, as part of the actual core of the issue rather than alongside. If the assumptions are alongside as you suggest then we can change the gender binary by changing what is 'alongside' (which is what most feminists and GC people want). Your suggested course of action is actually embedding the binary thinking as it suggests that people who act in feminine ways are women and those who act in masculine ways are male.

We can’t control what other people think about us - when they use our name, refer to us using the pronouns they believe to be the correct ones, or look at us

You are completely missing the point. There is a vast sea between 'controlling what others think about us' and actively being forced to pick a box to put yourself in when none of the boxes are the right ones for you. To pick up on your example of bisexuality, imagine if you needed to tick a box to say you are either homosexual or heterosexual. Neither box describes you and although you can't control how others see you or think about you, this does not make it OK to ask people to put themselves in those inappropriate boxes. This is the exact position that most people are now being put in when they are pressurized to state preferred pronouns.

In addition, you seem to say that can't control the pronouns people believe to be the correct one. Why then have you been advocating for that exact position on this thread?

But we can all try to be more aware of the assumptions we’re making about other people when we interact with them, and consciously interrogate those assumptions and try not to let them affect the way we treat people.

Yes I agree. People who support gender ideology and those who worry about the damage it is doing all need to interrogate their assumptions. I honestly don't see much of that from gender ideologists. I don't really know what you mean by 'not letting that affect the way we treat people'. You seem to be suggesting that there is a way forward which is 'nice' to everyone?. There really isn't as the concerns people have about the damage gender ideology is doing are legitimate but despite the clear elucidation of those concerns, gender ideologists continue to see things differently. There are opposing interests at stake so there is no solution which works for everyone and lack of being able to find one is not evidence of people not interrogating their assumptions, rather it is a reflection of the complexity of the situation.

Overall I may have misunderstood but you seem to be saying that language evolves over time, there is always fuzziness about exact definitions and we need to be nice to people. If this is the rationale for the suggestion that we change the definition of 'woman' then I would suggest that it is so weak that it might suggest that you need to interrogate your own assumptions, with a particular focus on whose interests will actually be supported if we all (or a majority) agree to change the definition of women and how we would actually be able to talk about the inequality issues which affect biological women regardless of how they identify.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2021 23:37

I don’t think a large range of pronouns will take off because I think most people will recognise that it isn’t reasonable to expect others to remember them. I may of course be wrong.

What you're missing here, is that the motivation to insist that people dance to your tune, isn't something which is easily satisfied. It isn't about what's "reasonable". It will continue until someone puts a stop to it.

Helen8220 · 16/09/2021 23:30

@Waitwhat23

Like most things in life it’s a process of negotiation and compromise. I don’t think a large range of pronouns will take off because I think most people will recognise that it isn’t reasonable to expect others to remember them. I may of course be wrong.

I have yet to meet anyone in real life whose preferred pronouns were anything other than she, he or they (I might have come across a zie). We are part of the Stonewall scheme and I’ve been on a few conferences and things run by them. I don’t think I’ve heard their position on neopronouns, but I would happily raise my concerns with them if they suggested that they should always be adhered to.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2021 23:06

Sorry, should have used the correct Stonewall language there - bringing their authentic self to work.

I'm assuming that your work is part of the Stonewall Diversity Champion scheme, Helen? How do they feel about the 3 or 4 allowable choices?

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2021 22:59

You can choose from a list of 3 (maybe 4) options. You don’t get to just make one up, or pick from a list of hundreds.

Is that the case in terms of your workplace? That there's a list of 3 or 4? Who makes that decision? I've seen plenty of 'preferred pronoun' requests which use neo pronouns for example - who is to say which ones are allowable?

Additionally, if someone really identifies with a particular, more unusual pronoun, is denying them the right to use it (if it's not on the list you get to choose from) really acceptable? Is that not denying them the right to 'bring their whole/true self to work'?

Helen8220 · 16/09/2021 22:52

@Waitwhat23
If people are asking for 'preferred pronouns' in email signatures, they are asking for bespoke, individual pronouns.

Surely they’re more ‘off the peg’ than bespoke? You can choose from a list of 3 (maybe 4) options. You don’t get to just make one up, or pick from a list of hundreds.

Helen8220 · 16/09/2021 22:50

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

The thing is, that it absolutely does capture how the vast majority of people use the word. There are always a few people who struggle to understand a concept. We don't change our language to fit in with their misunderstandings.

Actually this happens a fair bit. Take the word ‘disinterested’, which correctly means unbiased or not partisan. It has been so commonly misunderstood to mean the same as ‘uninterested’ that the old meaning has almost fallen out of usage and it is now pretty much accepted that it can be used to mean uninterested, because of that misunderstanding.

In what way was your language objectively accurate? I don't mean to be rude but the posts of yours I've read, every time you talk about gender ideology are entirely subjective and I think inaccurately assuming a commonality of experience. I think it is objective to say that pronouns can only ever refer to biological sex as otherwise we will have to have a joint definition of what 'woman' means - something which could never, ever be achieved. In the absence of that consensus, using the pronouns 'she/her' becomes fraught with assumptions which people then make about your character, beliefs etc.

When I said I was using language objectively I was specifically talking about my referring to ‘babies that are recorded as male or female at birth on the basis of their external genitalia’ and similar phrases to avoid using terms relating to sex or gender in a way which presupposes we agree their meaning, which we don’t.

Why do you think this has been the case since the dawn of time? I doubt that the modern assumptions about 'women' were made throughout all the 20,000 years of human existence and I do think it very possible that in our pre-history there was nothing like the level of sexist assumption made about women.

It’s an interesting question, I’d love to learn more about the history of the concepts of ‘man’ and ‘woman’. From things like the bible I guess we know that beliefs about inherent (not purely biological) differences between men and women go back quite a long way.

If we accept that the definition of 'woman' (if it is inexorably linked with assumptions about more than biological differences between men and women) changes every time there is a cultural change then, given that people relate to cultural change/ norms differently, there can be no commonality in the definition of woman. How then is it a useful word?

There are quite a lot of words that are useful and meaningful without having one single definition that everyone agrees on and which enables us to say in every single case definitively whether or not a thing (or person) falls within the definition. I’ve used the example before of ‘bisexual’ - you could start from ‘it means you’re attracted to people of both (/all) sexes (/genders)’ - but does that mean you’re bisexual if you’ve had a crush on someone of the same sex/gender once, even if every person you’ve been romantically or intimately involved with has been of the opposite sex/gender? Just because it’s a concept that’s a bit fuzzy around the edges doesn’t mean it’s not useful.

I can't 100% say that people are not using the word woman in purely biological terms but you can see from this thread that most people
commenting here are. I don't know anyone who would use that word in any other way but if they are, perhaps we should continue to try and break down those stereotypes rather than creating a context whereby women feel like to use the pronouns 'she/her' means that they are giving people permission to assume they are using the terms in non-biological ways. This is particularly uncomfortable given that there appear to be no pronouns for people who think differently than you to use. I can't state any preferred pronouns as - like you've demonstrated - there is a massive danger that people think that says something about my identity when it really doesn't. What pronouns should I prefer in this situation? I don't 'identify' with any, I don't feel 'comfortable' saying I am comfortable to be called she/ her or any other pronoun. I can't use them/ her as that suggests very binary thinking, which I feel is regressive and outdated. There is literally no pronoun that I can say I prefer as to do so suggests I think like you. I'm not criticizing your thinking but I am asking you to think about the position that pronoun stating actually puts many people in. Is there any way people can now say 'I'm happy to be called she/ her but only if you understand that this means I consider pronouns to solely be an expression of my biological sex and to say nothing about my identity which I believe is not significantly shaped by sex-based stereotypes?' I get that some people are also uncomfortable using the pronoun associated with their sex but that does not mean that the solution is to further embed stereotypes. I would like to help those people detach further from stereotypes and feel more free to just be them.

I don’t think most of the issues you mention are caused by stating preferred pronouns, they’re caused by the fact that the gender binary is embedded in our language, alongside lots of beliefs and assumptions about men and women. We can’t control what other people think about us - when they use our name, refer to us using the pronouns they believe to be the correct ones, or look at us. But we can all try to be more aware of the assumptions we’re making about other people when we interact with them, and consciously interrogate those assumptions and try not to let them affect the way we treat people.

Waitwhat23 · 16/09/2021 22:47

[quote Helen8220]@Waitwhat23
If you read the comments of the emojiself pronoun page I linked above, it's clear that the people using them take them very seriously. If fae (for example) is accepted as a pronoun, surely not accepting people to express themselves in other ways is othering, as Eresh says? Who decides what is 'reasonable' and what is not?

It’s not that I think the emoji pronoun thing is ‘a step too far’, it’s that I think it’s practically unworkable for people to have bespoke, individual pronouns of any kind, given the role that pronouns play in our language.[/quote]
If people are asking for 'preferred pronouns' in email signatures, they are asking for bespoke, individual pronouns.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2021 22:37

A lot of things about gender identity ideology are unworkable, Helen. Why is this one not something people should just learn to suck up and get on with?

Helen8220 · 16/09/2021 22:18

@Waitwhat23
If you read the comments of the emojiself pronoun page I linked above, it's clear that the people using them take them very seriously. If fae (for example) is accepted as a pronoun, surely not accepting people to express themselves in other ways is othering, as Eresh says? Who decides what is 'reasonable' and what is not?

It’s not that I think the emoji pronoun thing is ‘a step too far’, it’s that I think it’s practically unworkable for people to have bespoke, individual pronouns of any kind, given the role that pronouns play in our language.

Siameasy · 16/09/2021 20:12

There’s no need for pronouns to describe people who don’t conform to gender stereotypes
Those people are still either male or female. So he or she will be accurate, regardless

KittenKong · 16/09/2021 10:30

When mum was a young woman it wasn’t seemly for women to smoke in public. She wasn’t a smoker but would do so in public to piss off her dad if they had a row.

merrymouse · 16/09/2021 09:15

There have always been people who didn’t conform to an expected gender expression

Like women who wanted to study for a degree?

Like women who wear trousers?

Plenty of women don't 'conform to expected gender expression' in Afghanistan, but I don't think anyone is struggling to find the right language to describe them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2021 01:03

Who decides what is 'reasonable' and what is not?

Indeed. I'm not sure Helen should be seen as having the last word on it.