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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

591 replies

JustcameoutGC · 30/08/2021 10:16

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 31/08/2021 21:04

@BilindaB

''No because men are born with XY chromosomes and women are born with XX.''

And if they invent a chromosome-changing machine? It may take hundreds of years, but what if science can perfectly change a male body to a female one - have they changed sex then?

They're not going to, and if they did, people with healthy bodies that cause them psychological distress will be at the back of the queue, behind people with life-limiting conditions caused by chromosomal abnormalities (e.g. various trisomies) and people with recessive genetic syndromes, like cystic fibrosis and haemophilia.
Helleofabore · 31/08/2021 21:02

@BilindaB

''No because men are born with XY chromosomes and women are born with XX.''

And if they invent a chromosome-changing machine? It may take hundreds of years, but what if science can perfectly change a male body to a female one - have they changed sex then?

Yes..... I am an avid Star Trek lover. But I really don't believe that this is at all relevant for the current discussion.

We have had a few posters in the past, to be fair, that have tried to argue that we should change all the laws to reflect this future prospect. You can imagine that they could not coherently argue their case.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 31/08/2021 21:02

We don't seem to have the skills to ensure everyone has access to clean running water and electricity, and you're dreaming of chromosome changing machines.

Wouldn't a 'make you happy with your body' machine be better? Or society moving away from sexist stereotypes?

Anon778833 · 31/08/2021 21:02

What do you think? Seems like science fiction to me.

I agree. It's on a par with bringing Disney and his frozen head back to life...

Helleofabore · 31/08/2021 21:00

I do think that injecting hormones can approximate to the manufacture of hormones according to genetic instructions.

They are also artificial hormones, ie. not naturally produced in that persons body and not regulated by that person's body.

So, when those injections stop, what happens to that person's 'sex'?

OldCrone · 31/08/2021 21:00

Do you think that it is impossible that people will EVER be able to change sex, regardless of scientific progress?

By change sex, do you mean change the chromosomes in every cell in their body, turn their entire reproductive system into one of the opposite sex and naturally produce hormones of their new sex?

What do you think? Seems like science fiction to me.

Anon778833 · 31/08/2021 20:59

Sorry if I'm being dense.

But don't the power balances / imbalances between men and women boil down to the fact that women are the ones who give birth and do the majority of childcare?

Helleofabore · 31/08/2021 20:58

Do you think that it is impossible that people will EVER be able to change sex, regardless of scientific progress?

Not until they have a way to vaporise the body and rebuild it from the cells up.

I disagree that sex is just a combination of chromosomes, external sex organs and circulating hormones.

Why only external sex organs? Internal sex organs are just as important or you are basing this solely on cosmetic appearance and artificial hormones?

If the hormones still have the capacity to be produced when no longer suppressed, how is that person 'closer to the other sex'?

BilindaB · 31/08/2021 20:57

''No because men are born with XY chromosomes and women are born with XX.''

And if they invent a chromosome-changing machine? It may take hundreds of years, but what if science can perfectly change a male body to a female one - have they changed sex then?

Blibbyblobby · 31/08/2021 20:56

@RedDogsBeg

It's not surgeons and endocrinologists you need it is genetic engineers TheReluctantPhoenix.
Also personality engineers (who do not exist) to retro-fit the personality that would have developed had the person been treated from the day they were born the way our culture treats female-bodied people.

I don't believe male and female people have innately different personality traits. I do believe the way people treat you and the cultural images you see of "people like you" growing up affect the personality you develop.

Probably the main concern I have with the proposition that trans women must be interchangable with female people in all things is that it ignores these differences in socialisation.

The TRA assumption is (for those TRAs who have thought about it, which isn't many as most seem to assume that looking at women from the outside tells them all they could ever need to know about being a woman on the inside) that the trans woman's identification with females rather than males and being treated as a feminine male (so lesser in the patriarchy) means she magically picks up female socialisation instead of male.

I think there's enough public examples of trans women exhibiting male-socialised behaviour to question that assumption before making fundamental social changes based on it to the detriment of women.

To be clear, I don't like the differences in socialisation. I think they are a bad thing and we should challenge and ultimately remove them. But as long as they exist, female people need female-only support to mitigate them.

Anon778833 · 31/08/2021 20:54

Sorry I mean it is impossible.

Anon778833 · 31/08/2021 20:49

Do you think that it is impossible that people will EVER be able to change sex, regardless of scientific progress?

No because men are born with XY chromosomes and women are born with XX.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 31/08/2021 20:46

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark,

Given some of what I wrote, I don’t think the TRA community would embrace me!

My arguments were about genitalia and circulating hormones, not ‘feels’.

I do think that injecting hormones can approximate to the manufacture of hormones according to genetic instructions.

Do you think that it is impossible that people will EVER be able to change sex, regardless of scientific progress?

Anon778833 · 31/08/2021 20:39

Magdalen Berns made a YouTube video about Stonewall which I remember watching. She said that they do not represent lesbians and that they are 'treacherous money taking bastards'

I miss her. She spoke so much sense.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 31/08/2021 20:31

Your answer to my comment had a lot in common with TWAW-it is very faith based.

I think this is a great example of the TRA practice of appropriating terminology and arguments from our side of the debate, and transplanting them into their own version of arguments. Where they simply don’t work at all.

There was absolutely nothing “faith based” in what Eresh said; it was pure objective, rational reason.

This idea that sex is a spectrum and someone can be somewhere along the line rather than on one of the only two points available is absolute nonsense. Sex refers to one’s reproductive capacity, the health and functionality of that reproductive capacity notwithstanding. That’s literally all it means.

Humans, like other mammals, fall into the class thar can produce ova, or the class that can produce sperm - regardless of whether they actually produce any at all. There are no humans that produce speggs or overm or any other ridiculous fantasy notion. There is no third sex. It is a binary. You cannot be more woman than man, you’re either a woman or a man.

And if you’re a man who’s modified his body with surgery and/or hormones so that it more closely resembles that of a woman, well, that’s exactly what you are. A man with bodily modifications, in an attempt to approximate a woman.

It is so profoundly insulting to women to say that our reality is so nebulous and indefinable that a man approximating it in this way actually is indistinguishable from us.

And of course the reality is that the vast majority of males who identify as women don’t actually have surgery at all, or if they do it’s just breast implants or “facial feminisation”. A good number don’t even bother with hormone treatment.

And can we set the record straight about the idea that all these poor men are living in great distress with acute, crippling gender dysphoria? No. They’re not. In fact it’s considered deeply transphobic these days to say that having GD is a prerequisite for being trans. Now it’s all about the “gender identity”: a conveniently indefinable, unpin-downable supposed internal “knowing” that you are a woman or a man absolutely independently of your biological sex, your sexed body.

Many of the biologically male people who claim to be trans nowadays don’t have any gender dysphoria at all and are perfectly happy with their perfectly male bodies. Their “gender identity” is all they need to claim thar they’re women. They are happy to parade around half naked in spaces for vulnerable women, showing off the unmistakably male, unmistakably aroused bulge in their underwear. Or their penis itself, in some well documented situations.

Not that I think a man with gender dysphoria is actually a woman either, but for the love of all that’s holy can we stop with the “such painful decisions, such a painful, difficult journey” narrative when it’s just not relevant to so many of the biologically male people who claim a trans identity these days. There’s nothing painful about being enabled to live out your fantasy in public while shitting all over the rights and boundaries of the sex class which actually is more vulnerable.

Male entitlement is not something that any woman who calls herself a feminist should be glorifying, glamorising or promoting.

Waitwhat23 · 31/08/2021 20:13

It is interesting how often new posters come onto to threads to say 'you're all nasty transphobes who are in an echo chamber! The other side have a point too!'.

And then they have a read through some of the other threads, see the same circular arguments made by the same posters, see the lack of evidence, research and reality offered by TRA's, start to think 'hang on,
but that doesn't make sense!' and come back to a later thread and say 'I get it now'.

There's long standing regular posters who went through it, often having been taken to task by Dittany (I never had the pleasure!).

On this particular thread, a homophobic, lesbophobic argument has been put forward that lesbians should consider their 'prejudices' when considering sexual partners and preferences such as height, weight or hair colour are comparable to inherent sexual orientation. I'm happy to have 'made my mind up' that I disagree with this.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 31/08/2021 20:04

@NecessaryScene

I think the definition of a woman is not purely chromosomal. It is a combination of chromosomes, external sex organs and circulating hormones.

I'm sorry, but that is hilarious. It's cargo cult nonsense.

It's like saying "a computer is a combination of electronic circuits, a keyboard, and a plastic box".

So a horse in a plastic box with a keyboard strapped on like a saddle may not be 100% a computer, but may be closer to computer than horse.

Brilliant Grin
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 31/08/2021 20:03

@FloralBunting

Just to be clear, lesbians are attracted to other women. Not nearly women, or not quite men.
This.

And also this from you, from upthread:

I'm not looking for a row. I'm, quite honestly, demanding that lesbians can say openly and without apology or qualification that they are lesbian and that it is simply accepted that they are under no obligation whatsoever to be open to males, not even the subset of males who believe themselves to be female. That they don't have to be circumspect about saying they are lesbian in case someone finds it offensive or hurtful. Because homosexuality is protected by law. And nothing like racism, which isn't.

Women are used to asking nicely, pretty please, while men are used to demanding.

Women need to do a whole lot more demanding. Easier said than done, of course, given male power and privilege, and female socialisation. But I think Floral sets a great example for us there.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 31/08/2021 19:56

I guess I'm sitting uncomfortably somewhere in the middle of the debate and thinking about the arguments on both sides.

You either believe that human females are a distinct class and need to be seen as such, or you believe that 'woman' is a self-determined gender. Why are you 'sitting uncomfortably' with your opinions?

If you want to compromise and make 'woman' mean different things at different times, we need to be clear about the definitions and consequences. Is that what you are uncomfortable with - having serveral definitions for 'woman'?

RedDogsBeg · 31/08/2021 19:54

It's not surgeons and endocrinologists you need it is genetic engineers TheReluctantPhoenix.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2021 19:51

I was going to reply to the ‘horse box’, but it was too ludicrous.

Not really, just pointing out your logic fail. You're entitled to your personal beliefs, of course.

FloralBunting · 31/08/2021 19:48

Just to be clear, lesbians are attracted to other women. Not nearly women, or not quite men.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 31/08/2021 19:48

@Ereshkigalangcleg,

I was going to reply to the ‘horse box’, but it was too ludicrous.

Surgeons and endocrinologists are not as stupid as you clearly believe them to be.

They may not know how to build the full ‘computer’ yet, but they are a lot further down the line than just chucking some components in a box.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/08/2021 19:45

It's not "faith-based" to understand what sex is.

Sex is about which gametes (of the two) your body is set up to produce, not your hormones or secondary sex characteristics. Men with moobs are not "closer to women than men" because they have more fatty tissue in their breasts.

I think NecessaryScene answered you perfectly.

TheReluctantPhoenix · 31/08/2021 19:38

@Ereshkigalangcleg,

Your answer to my comment had a lot in common with TWAW-it is very faith based.

Circulating hormones affect all secondary sexual characteristics.

Where I do agree with you (as I said) is that transitioning towards (not to) another sex requires both surgery and hormones. It is not ‘a feeling’.