Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

'I'm owed sex by women' or indeed 'Women exist to service my needs' is a common theme with males in both these groups. Incels appear to believe that women who wear make-up & 'transform' themselves, therefore apparently attracting better looking men (and 'men with money') need bringing down a peg or two - in order to find the men who desire (hate) them attractive. TRA 'lesbian' males believe lesbian women who aren't attracted to them (because they're attracted to women) need to address their prejudices in order to find 'women' with penises (who fancy/hate them) attractive as well. This is male pattern behaviour.

A case in point of men becoming murderous when women say no to them.

What you mean is, some people feel upset that they're being "discounted" as dating options. We've all seen that, from the polemics about the friend zone, to natal males calling lesbians "transphobic" for refusing to be sexually available.

Let's be honest, we've also seen it in the incel community.

The TRAs have latched onto the word "gender" as a way to force their agenda. Any sensible person knows that fundamentally, when you really get down to it and stop pissing about, it's just a synonym for "sex" and needs no further analysis.

Christ how I'd love to do away with the word altogether and just stick with "sex" so that they can't dance around the language.

Wishful thinking probably as we've now reached the point where there are transwomen claiming they are "female" anyway. They just want what they can't have.

Words have no meaning anymore.

Hear hear, allmywhat

Why could the same-gender attracted people not give themselves a brand new name and fight for their own rights under that, beside their gay and lesbian allies?

I understand why people are using the term but I absolutely hate this “same gender” terminology. I don’t share a “gender” with transwomen. Other women can claim that if they want - though I tend to think those who do don’t fully understand what they are laying claim to- but personally, fuck that noise. And since you really can’t tell someone’s gender or lack thereof by looking at them, and anyway there are eleventy thousand genders, the concept of same-gender attraction is incoherent.

homophobia is not an inherent sentiment of someone who is unhappy that someone else might be discounting more people from dating options.

What. The. Actual.

Who, exactly, goes around being unhappy that other people are "discounting" people as dating options? Who? There are loads of things I am unhappy about, from the biggies (Afghanistan, human rights abuses in various countries) right down to next-door's car parking, and the New and Improved (like fuck is it) recipe of my favourite chocolate bar.

But never have I felt unhappy that someone was discounting too many people from their dating options. No-one does.

What you mean is, some people feel upset that they're being "discounted" as dating options. We've all seen that, from the polemics about the friend zone, to natal males calling lesbians "transphobic" for refusing to be sexually available.

It all deserves the same answer: some women aren't into you. Get over it!

Anytime you urge an individual to reassess their prejudices, or their privilege when it comes to who they are attracted to and want to sleep with you are attempting to coerce them into overriding their instincts. This is manipulation. This is control. This is gaslighting. It is not in any conceivable way altruistic.

Appropriating the name of a marginalised group is a form of oppression. People can believe, if they wish that transwomen who are attracted to members of the opposite sex are " homosexual", but imposing that belief on others is oppression and deeply homophobic.

And it is also probably pertinent to ask again where are the lobby groups that are seeking to ensure that lesbians are NOT abused or harmed in any way or even disrespected by even a ‘minority’ of males who insist that lesbians accept partners with penises.

I ask as a parent of a teen, because I have seen this pressure working on 14 year olds. Any person who dismisses that it is happening needs to start facing the fact that it does. Maybe not in the groups you hang out with, but I certainly have seen the effect and continue to do so daily.

This constant dismissal that it is an issue that needs to be addressed means that the issue will result in the current group of 14 year olds having their boundaries heavily influenced by others. Is that your intention?

I know the sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives and to think that people want to take that away from them, is frankly, horrifying.

And when I read this, I question where the line is able to be drawn. I, too, am completely fucking horrified that you would advocate to remove the spaces needed by females to be single sex because you prioritise the needs of males who identify as women over females. The many, many women who need that sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives that is exclusively for females.

It is quite possible to accommodate those male’s needs while maintaining provision for female’s who need single sex spaces. Why on earth would anyone deny both groups have needs?

So if a straight man was approached by a gay man I think they can easily say 'Sorry mate, I'm not interested', rather than saying 'Sorry mate, you've got a dick and balls and that's a real turn off for me', or if a straight woman was approached by a gay woman, she could say 'Sorry, I'm not interested' rather than shouting out 'God, no, I'm straight, your vulva is really unappealing to me"

For the umpty-billionth time, the issue is that same-sex attracted people had a name for their sexuality and now they don't, because someone else wanted to use it instead.

Why is that ok? Why could the same-gender attracted people not give themselves a brand new name and fight for their own rights under that, beside their gay and lesbian allies? Surely a movement with the passion and creativity to uncover and name ever more detailed gender identities and pronouns could have come up with a couple of names for same-gender attraction as well?

I'm sorry, you're right. You are obviously much better positioned to speak on their behalf. Maybe you should approach them all about voting you in as spokesperson?

And to clarify after your last posts? Are we to understand that you are not a transwoman, yet speak on behalf of the ‘vast majority’?

SOMEONE WHO IS UNHAPPY THAT SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT BE DISCOUNTING MORE PEOPLE FROM DATING OPTIONS.

MEN who are UNHAPPY about WOMEN having sexual boundaries. That’s who. And you support and enable that RAPE CULTURE.

Exactly. And the reason why it's such a clunky sentence is because that poster has tried to make it not sound like the entitled, misogynistic demand that women shouldn't limit their sexual partners if it happens to exclude someone who wants to have sex with them.

I know the sense of community and friendship has been so, so important for them amongst all the difficulties they have experienced in other areas of their lives and to think that people want to take that away from them, is frankly, horrifying.

Who's wanting to take what away from these people? Women want some spaces to themselves. Lesbians want not to be told to 'get over' their 'genital preferences'.

That is not the same as chasing transwomen out of social groups.

Declining to have a male-bodied person as a HCP, or saying male-bodied people shouldn't be housed in women's prisons, or just that women would like to have the right to say 'sorry, this group is just for women and girls' and not be sacked, doxxed, threatened, vilified, attacked and monstered for it does NOT mean anyone is saying that other women should keep their groups male-free.

You are happy to be inclusive of males - fab! Great! Fill your boots! So just let us have our women-only spaces in some specific instances, and everyone's happy, no?

So if a straight man was approached by a gay man I think they can easily say 'Sorry mate, I'm not interested', rather than saying 'Sorry mate, you've got a dick and balls and that's a real turn off for me', or if a straight woman was approached by a gay woman, she could say 'Sorry, I'm not interested' rather than shouting out 'God, no, I'm straight, your vulva is really unappealing to me"

So, suggestions.

That’s very creative on your part. I don’t know about you, but I suspect that lesbians and gay men tend to be very circumspect when approaching women and men they don’t already know to be also gay or bi. For very good reasons. A good number of straight men may not necessarily respond with words at all, if propositioned by a gay man, but may default straight to violence. It’s odd that you seem to be so unaware of the continuing phenomenon of “queer bashing” that you wouldn’t realise this.

Which is why lesbian and gay bars (and, for gay men particularly, other known cruising sites) have always been so important. These days dating apps perform an equivalent function.

For lesbians in particular, the benefit of a theoretically lesbian only space, real or virtual, is not just knowing that the women she meets there will also be lesbians, so potentially interested in her, but also the freedom from having to fend off the often incessant advances of male people.

You must have led an incredibly sheltered life if you think that women can easily knock back the advances of men without sometimes needing to be very blunt and assertive about it, without being in fear of the consequences of saying no to a male person who actually is so entitled that he doesn’t think women have a right to say no to him. Perhaps you’re unaware of the numbers of women who are assaulted or even killed every year because they had the temerity to say no to a violent, entitled, narcissistic man. It’s pretty grim, so maybe that’s why you choose to close your eyes to it.

Lesbian dating apps should be a refuge from all this. But they’re not. Women are being thrown off dating apps that should cater exclusively for them because they want to be able to state from tje get go they’re only interested in other biologically female people; they’re even being thrown off for repeatedly politely declining the advances of biologically male “lesbians”, as you say they should be perfectly entitled to do, because those male people then report them for “transphobia”, and that’s not allowed.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

Women having boundaries isn’t allowed.

I’m also going to repost what you said upthread because it’s so shocking:

The final sentence "And that anyone attacking her for holding this position is being homophobic?" is problematic, as homophobia is not an inherent sentiment of someone who is unhappy that someone else might be discounting more people from dating options.

Let’s just look at that last bit again:

SOMEONE WHO IS UNHAPPY THAT SOMEONE ELSE MIGHT BE DISCOUNTING MORE PEOPLE FROM DATING OPTIONS.

Who are these “someones” who are entitled to be “unhappy” about “someone else’s” “dating options”??

WHO THE FUCK ARE THEY?

NO ONE is actually entitled to be unhappy about someone else’s dating options, absolutely not one single person on the whole planet.

But not in your world. In your world, there are some people who are entitled to this.

MEN who are UNHAPPY about WOMEN having sexual boundaries. That’s who. And you support and enable that RAPE CULTURE.

What the holy fucking fuck? I thought I was angry about this before but I’m fucking incandescent now.

This is the Feminism board. And you are coming here with THIS level of misogyny, of lesbophobia, of rape apologism.

You are someone who thinks that women having sexual boundaries isn’t acceptable. That is who you are, behind your mask of “trans rights”. And it’s so very, very ugly.

Trans lesbians have no interest at all in dating or having sex with someone that is not attracted to them - why is that so difficult to understand?

Would anyone posting here want to date or have sex with someone who didn't desire them? Of course not!

By 'trans lesbians' I assume you mean heterosexual males.

The mere fact that some males commit rape indicates that some males do want to have sex with someone who doesn't desire them.

Why is that so difficult to understand.

I don't understand the mentality that if it works for some it should work for all.

Some lesbians are happy to view a transwoman as a woman and say that their relationship with said transwoman is still a lesbian relationship. It goes against the definition of lesbian as same sex attracted, but fine, knock yourself if you're in love and happy.

But why does that mean all lesbians have to agree with the inclusion of transwomen into the definition of "lesbian".

Surely those who are happy with this re-defining are in the minority and should just get on with it rather that trying to force a new meaning of the words gay and lesbian onto same sex attracted people. Sexual attraction is by its very definition not inclusive. That's not a bad thing.

suggestionsplease1

It's pretty pointless being in complete denial about the coercion that lesbians are experiencing, when a man has been targeted and had to leave pride, purely on the basis of the fact that he was saying lesbianism exists.

There are no lesbian only dating sites, dating apps, clubs, bars. Zero. So don't come on here and pretend that lesbians aren't being targeted to have sex with men who say they're women.

As for males demanding sex from women who don't want to have sex with them, it's bloody commonplace. Five seconds on the relationships board will show you that.

I doubt there's a woman on here who hasn't an experienced a man attempting an unwanted sexual encounter. Rare it isn't.

There are lesbians that are happily dating trans lesbians

So lesbians in heterosexual relationships?

Or is hyperbole the only answer you have?

Yes, it's tremendously clear and always has been that your sympathy for lesbians who want to be in women only spaces is lacking because you're expending it all on the TW of your aquaintance. Stonewall supports you.

No doubt you'll be fine with LGB Alliance existing to support the lesbians who do want women-only spaces and are currently having to keep them secret because they are being pilloried by people like you and the fragrant BilindaB if they have them openly.