Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

and have heard many prominent trans women (I follow about 6 on YouTube) all said this claim was ridiculous.

Oh well that must definitely be true then.

And that refers to my agreement that the MALE LGB activist, there to cause trouble, was rightly removed by the gay, lesbian and trans Pride event, as he was promoting a trans hate group. Anyone turning up to Pride wearing t-shirts that are anti Gay, Lesbian or Trans should be made to leave.

Bizarrely biased framing of a man wearing the logo of a registered charity for lesbian, gay and bisexual people, not a "trans hate group".

''And to ignore requests to qualify just how you have the authority to speak for 'the vast majority' of trans people in light of not having any other evidence to support your claim.''

I'm not speaking for them, I am reporting that I see no evidence that the majority of trans lesbians are demanding lesbians have sex with them, and have heard many prominent trans women (I follow about 6 on YouTube) all said this claim was ridiculous.

''Do you deny that women are being removed from public spaces for not accepting males with penises? Removed because the spaces do not exist, or by being banned for wrong think?''

I don't deny it, apparently that is happening. Lesbians who only want born female Lesbians should have their spaces.

You said

''However, you are more concerned about defending the removal of women from public spaces for thinking wrong things.''

And that refers to my agreement that the MALE LGB activist, there to cause trouble, was rightly removed by the gay, lesbian and trans Pride event, as he was promoting a trans hate group. Anyone turning up to Pride wearing t-shirts that are anti Gay, Lesbian or Trans should be made to leave.

''However, you are more concerned about defending the removal of women from public spaces for thinking wrong things.''

Referring back to how this thread started. The OP was this:

The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises was one of the things that really made me start questioning gender identity politics more closely.

Exclusively homosexual lesbian spaces have disappeared as viewed to be transphobic. Just look on any lesbian dating apps and many of the users are male and be-penised. Some may be fine with this, but all of my lesbian friends are not, and they feel very disenfranchised, but equally they feel unable to speak out. Just look at what happened in Manchester.

I just can't wrap my head around how the prevoiusly stalwart and highly effective champion of gay rights has now essentially outlawed exclusive homosexuality.

Have they made any statements that make this stance clear? Have they actively said they do not support exclusively homosexual spaces?

ie. Justcameout has expressed concern that lesbian only spaces and services are being removed because these have become mixed sex and the very word 'lesbian' has been redefined by organisations such as Stonewall.

Bilinda's answer was :

'The expectation that lesbians accept partners with penises'

Who expects this? Not the vast majority of trans people. It's a bullshit myth put around by transphobes.

And Bilinda, you have continued to deny this is happening all the way through the thread. And to ignore requests to qualify just how you have the authority to speak for 'the vast majority' of trans people in light of not having any other evidence to support your claim.

Plus you have also stated that a gay man was 'asking for' the abuse he got being removed from a Pride event for wearing apparel that reflected his 'wrong think'. We can only assume that you would say the exact same thing about a lesbian being ejected for wearing the same.

Do you deny that women are being removed from public spaces for not accepting males with penises? Removed because the spaces do not exist, or by being banned for wrong think?

Do you deny that lesbians that are telling the world that this is happening, or just that you don't believe them, or that YOU feel that it is just not that important an issue to take any notice of (in which case will it be n+1 lesbians stating it is happening for you to take notice)?

You support the removal of gay people from Pride demos, yes?
Both lesbians and gay men have been targeted by mobs.

''However, you are more concerned about defending the removal of women from public spaces for thinking wrong things.''

What the hell are you babbling about?

This thread asked if Lesbians who wanted an app for lesbians but not for 'trans lesbians' should have one, and I said I totally thought that was their right.

Then you talked about how it could be possible in the future for a man to become a woman and a lesbian.

You are saying women having the right to organise without men on one hand, but fantasising about a time when that wouldn't be possible. Are you sure you are as enthusiastic for a male free dating app as you claim?

NotBadConsidering

Merriam-Webster Definition of
echo chamber
: a room with sound-reflecting walls used for producing hollow or echoing sound effects —often used figuratively
Living in a kind of echo chamber of their own opinions, they pay attention to information that fits their conclusions and ignore information that does not.

So, according to this, someone who ignores information that does not fit their conclusions would ignore the string of unanswered (unanswerable) question.

Not sure I know any long term poster that would ignore information given, argue and understand the nuance and limitations of that information. Take proposed information through to unexpected dimensions in their attempt to better understand the ramifications, yes. Lay concepts bare and rebuild them to find a way to make things workable, yes.

Ignore questions? no. Ignore information? no. Ignore reality? no.

The only thing that makes this forum an echo chamber is the perpetual ring of unanswered questions.

Er, whatever, yeah

This thread asked if Lesbians who wanted an app for lesbians but not for 'trans lesbians' should have one, and I said I totally thought that was their right.

Please don't mistake this as one of those purity spiral safe spaces. We are the people that allow that just because someone agrees that water is wet doesn't mean that we agree with all their assertions.

It is quite funny to see claims laid out at us that we are 'echo chambers' as so many of us have very differing views and yet.... we so often are and those doing it show their complete ignorance.

Stonewall haven't just added the T, they have shat all over the LGB.

How do they sleep at night? All the work that those men and women did to have homosexuality accepted hasn't just been tossed aside, it's been discredited and denigrated.

Quite a few prominent gay men are now coming out and lifting the lid.

Yes, I saw a TRA ally raging that the message Ofcom had sent by leaving Stonewall was that it was now a controversial organisation politically.

Well yes. Slow hand clap. Well done.

They have publically defended their position (the Nancy Kelly interview) it is; anyone who does not publically agree with our (undefined and contradictory) magical thinking is a big meanie just like in Nazi germany.

At some point, Stonewall will have to publicly defend their position.

As they are complicit, I don't see how they will ever be able to defend their position. I remember two posters tag teaming posts and threads during Lesbian week who also simply could not produce any evidence at all of 'their' community reaching out to defend the many lesbians on those threads detailing their experiences at attempts to coerce them to accept male partners.

Stonewall was posting only affirming posts, and not once acknowledging the many tweets and posts that lesbians were sending in return.

I guess, when you are so far entrenched it must be easy to dismiss these incidents as n+1, and therefore take the 'all my mates never discuss it with me so it doesn't happen' approach.

A bit like any other inconvenient statistic that needs to be ignored.

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
wgscotland.org.uk/reports/

Not one of the LGBT groups the statement was mailed to responded positively to it. The Equality Network explicitly said they don’t recognise this definition of homosexual, only the version that is based on gender identity instead of sex.

There are no “LGBT” orgs which explicitly support people who are open about being exclusively same sex attracted, except for the LGBA. Which is precisely why the LGBA was formed. And yet time and time again, the LGBA is demonised as a “hate group” that was formed purely to attack trans people.

No. The attacks and the hate are all coming from the established “LGBT community” that prioritises gender identity over sex and has betrayed and abandoned those lesbians and gay men who are honest about their sexual orientation.

(Exclusively same sex attracted hypocrites like OJ who chant the mantras but would never dream of actually having sex with someone of the opposite sex, no matter how they present, are of course welcomed and represented by the Queer Establishment.)

After all these years, this is one of the things that still shocks me so much I can’t quite compute it. Lesbians and gay men being demonised and ostracised by Stonewall and all the other existing orgs that are supposed to be for them, simply for saying they’re exclusively same sex attracted.

It doesn’t get much more Upside Down than that.

------

It still shocks me. Especially as the general public seem to have absolutely no idea.

Stonewall haven't just added the T, they have shat all over the LGB.

How do they sleep at night? All the work that those men and women did to have homosexuality accepted hasn't just been tossed aside, it's been discredited and denigrated.

Quite a few prominent gay men are now coming out and lifting the lid.

At some point, Stonewall will have to publicly defend their position.

Imagine if all the funding and resources that are currently going into changing people’s bodies and destroying women’s rights were instead channelled into improving MH services, producing a culture of real support with therapists able to deliver services that were actually fit for purpose, and could enable people to live comfortably in their unmodified bodies, without having to try and shape the world to fit their illusion.

Now that is something worthy to think about and aspire too.

A sign of just how unevolved we are on a societal level that numbers of people really think that human endeavour would be best applied to coming up with ever newer and more extreme ways to modify the body to make it align more closely with their psychological distress, illusion or fantasy, rather than putting all that energy into finding ways to heal the mind of its distress and illusion.

Imagine if all the funding and resources that are currently going into changing people’s bodies and destroying women’s rights were instead channelled into improving MH services, producing a culture of real support with therapists able to deliver services that were actually fit for purpose, and could enable people to live comfortably in their unmodified bodies, without having to try and shape the world to fit their illusion.

Thank you Talking

Good plan.

Meanwhile, I just want to repost this from CharlieParley upthread, as it goes to the heart of the original question behind this thread (I believe this was specifically Stonewall Scotland, but I see no reason to think Stonewall UK would have responded any differently):

In 2018, Stonewall were asked to support the following statement:

“Exclusive same sex attraction is a valid and real sexuality, there is absolutely nothing objectionable about being exclusively same sex attracted, and those who are should be able to live their sexuality free from any form of hate, discrimination, coercion or harassment, and are fully supported by our organisation as part of the LGBT community".

Stonewall's response:

"We cannot help you with that."

From
Female Only Provision:
A Women and Girls in Scotland Report
Page 55f.
^wgscotland.org.uk/reports/^

Not one of the LGBT groups the statement was mailed to responded positively to it. The Equality Network explicitly said they don’t recognise this definition of homosexual, only the version that is based on gender identity instead of sex.

There are no “LGBT” orgs which explicitly support people who are open about being exclusively same sex attracted, except for the LGBA. Which is precisely why the LGBA was formed. And yet time and time again, the LGBA is demonised as a “hate group” that was formed purely to attack trans people.

No. The attacks and the hate are all coming from the established “LGBT community” that prioritises gender identity over sex and has betrayed and abandoned those lesbians and gay men who are honest about their sexual orientation.

(Exclusively same sex attracted hypocrites like OJ who chant the mantras but would never dream of actually having sex with someone of the opposite sex, no matter how they present, are of course welcomed and represented by the Queer Establishment.)

After all these years, this is one of the things that still shocks me so much I can’t quite compute it. Lesbians and gay men being demonised and ostracised by Stonewall and all the other existing orgs that are supposed to be for them, simply for saying they’re exclusively same sex attracted.

It doesn’t get much more Upside Down than that.

I was thinking that too, Necessary. A male person who now magically could produce ova and be impregnated would still have the male skeletal frame he was born with, the greater heart/lung size, etc etc etc. But it really is so absurd we shouldn’t even be discussing it.

Not that I’m wanting to silence debate, just it’s a colossal waste of time and energy!

For normal competition, you'd have to have a "no body modification" classification, so any such FTM transformation would exclude you from that.

And how would you know? Ethics have already left the world by this point I would think. Certainly authenticity as we once knew it (before this current meaning change to mean how you really want to be perceived rather than how you actually are) would have left the earth.

Anyway, back to Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?