Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

'It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women'

Yes it is. It's a minority belief. The world is changing whether you like it or not. Seriously, what do you think will be completely normal in 20-30 years? Not the world you want.

@FloralBunting
A woman in a relationship with a transwoman may be a lesbian. I was married to a man for a long time and I'm a lesbian.

But it was a heterosexual relationship.

Absolutely. I thought of that after I posted. Apologies

@BilindaB

I think it's pretty misogynist to suggest that you can tell a woman if she is or isn't a lesbian, based on your personal belief that trans women aren't women.

I'm not telling anyone anything, a lesbian relationship is one that involves two women. It's not 'my personal belief' that transwomen aren't women - they're not, though they can call themselves women if they want. They can call it a 'lesbian relationship' if they want, but it isn't. People don't get to make up their own facts.

It's not a personal belief BilindaB, it's a scientific fact. It's biologically impossible for a male to become female. All the plastic surgery & hormones in the world won't change that. Woman = adult human female. I don't attach any value judgement to that, it's just how it is. Any claim that a male who feels 'feminine' or 'submissive' (as has been admitted on these boards) is actually female is sexist claptrap. Doesn't mean there aren't a lot of dissatisfied people around, but they can't insist that everyone else believes in a falsehood. And as Floral points out, a lesbian in a relationship with a transwoman is in a heterosexual relationship.

Although gender identity and sexuality should not be conflated, to be absolutist about this is not realistic for young people growing up in these times and experiencing the general confusion and stress of adolescence.

“Don’t be absolutist” is just another way of saying “don’t have boundaries, and if you do, we will erode them.”

Not a single trans supporting/activist individual or group has come out publicly and said “males cannot be lesbians”.

As Gina Carano said, if the abusive people don’t speak for most trans people, they need to find less abusive representation.

Haven't read the full bunfight but here's Stonewalls submission to the Women & Equalities inquiry that states they want to remove sex based exemptions from the EA, and replace 'gender reassignment' with 'gender identity';

www.stonewall.org.uk/women-and-equalities-select-committee-inquiry-transgender-equality

(Which is interesting, as it means they admit that single sex exemptions are for women only.)

One 17yo said "It's not fucking complicated. If you like pussy and you have a pussy, you're a lesbian. If you've got a knob, you're a bloke."

From my own experience and that of anyone I've ever known who was 17 at some point the attitude towards sex and dating is pretty basic to say the least, which is why I can't understand why so many teenagers are falling for this ideology.

With respect to "Claims that sex is meaningless" and how this is not supposed to be a thing, well, it is a thing that trans activists are continually going on about:

twitter.com/LabelFreeBrands/status/1378521859629588482

if gender is on a spectrum then homosexuality doesn't really exist because it can only exist in a binary

• Joy Everingham (note the vicar's dog collar)

@suggestionsplease1

I don't see that Stonewall have denied the right of any individual to choose their sexual partners on the basis of any reason whatsoever.

There seems to be this weird idea that a trans lesbian can expect someone to have sex with them

You have totally missed the point of my post. It's not about right to say no on a case by case basis, it's about the right to say upfront "I'm gay/lesbian and that means I'm same-sex attracted".

Stonewall and TRA's redefinition of the words Gay and Lesbian (in support of their redefinition of the words Man and Woman) has taken that right away so it can be conferred on people who want to say "I'm gay/lesbian and that means I'm attracted to either sex but only one gender (my own, which also forces me to have a gender identity)"

Putting same sex attracted people back in the dark ages of having their sexuality denied by people who think they just haven't met the right cock/cunt yet.

Try reading my post again and seeing what's actually there not what you expect to see.

personally, the terminology isn't my cup of tea, but I get over it because it is at least connected to reality.

Conversation with two 17 year olds a couple of days ago, very frustrated with a transmasc person in their friendship group who is boring everyone to tears with the navel-gazing.
One 17yo said "It's not fucking complicated. If you like pussy and you have a pussy, you're a lesbian. If you've got a knob, you're a bloke."

Outside a bullshit bubble on TikTok, quite a lot of young people I know have that perspective. It's ridiculously refreshing, tbh.

suggestionsplease1

"Young people" are not a monolith. There are lesbian and gay teenagers out there who know they are same-sex attracted and want groups that support their right to exist as same-sex attracted people. Young people who do not want to be browbeaten into "coping" with being the sex dispenser and validation dispenser for someone they're not attracted to.

But it was a heterosexual relationship.

And a lesbian in a relationship with a transwoman is also in a heterosexual relationship. She might have any number of reasons to be so, but it's not a lesbian relationship just by dint of her being a lesbian, anymore than my marriage to a man made it a lesbian marriage just because I'm a lesbian.

BilindaB, here is a visual aid which helps explain the problem:

I think you should take a look at this thread, which is definitely NSFW.

archive.is/bBshL

Now, please show us the 'vast majority' (your phrase, I think) of lovely trans folks heartily condemning this sort of behaviour? Where are the thousands of outraged tweets from trans people asserting everyone's right to choose their partners on the basis of sex? Where are all the thousands of emails to the Graun and the Mail and the Telegraph and the BBC and their MPs and the PM, protesting this sort of harassment and intimidation, which targets sex and/or sexual orientation? For that matter, why are trans people not standing up for women's right to safety, privacy, and dignity when in states of undress, when needing a refuge from male violence, when in prison, when in hospital? (And by "woman" I mean "adult human female; human adult who does not have a Y chromosome", which I think you will find is the majority view.)

Stonewall was set up to promote and protect the rights of gays and lesbians. Now they won't even say that they will do the very thing they were set up for, as CharlieParley informed us: 'We can't help you with that':

unherd.com/2021/08/stonewalls-greatest-betrayal/

Although gender identity and sexuality should not be conflated, to be absolutist about this is not realistic for young people growing up in these times and experiencing the general confusion and stress of adolescence.

Are you implying that your sexuality is a choice? Why is it not realistic to think that most adolescents will absolutely know what sex or sexes they are attracted/ not attracted to?

I can't imagine that meat eaters could care less if new vegetarian societies pop up that exclude them. Although the new vegetarian societies may be missing a trick by making themselves inaccessible to meat eaters and losing the opportunity to encourage others to think carefully about what they eat, the ethics of how animals are raised for food, deforestation, CO2 emissions etc.

Although gender identity and sexuality should not be conflated, to be absolutist about this is not realistic for young people growing up in these times and experiencing the general confusion and stress of adolescence.

And I can tell you right now - they're not attracted to absolutist, exclusionary groups. They're attracted to broader, welcoming, friendly groups where they can more safely navigate the difficulties of gender and sexuality confusion. They're turning off from the label 'lesbian' because they don't like the connotations it now seems to have to them. That's lesbian erasure happening right there and it's a shooting yourself in the foot moment for some groups.

You've been given lots of chances*

You have not provided any good evidence (as far as I'm aware), which really doesn't help your claim. This leads me to the conclusion that you either don't care what the truth is (and will continue to make assertions that are the most convenient to you no matter what the evidence is).....or, you've simply come on here to troll women and lesbians in particular who really care about their rights.

I don't want to tell trans-exclusionary lesbians what they should want.

This definitely suggests that lesbians have an obligation to consider MtFs as sexual partners if they don't want to be classed as trans exclusionary.

I don't see that Stonewall have denied the right of any individual to choose their sexual partners on the basis of any reason whatsoever.

That's lovely, but repeating my analogy, I would not expect a vegetarian society to be concentrating on the right of anyone to eat any food they like.

They should be specifically concentrating on vegetarian issues, and not worrying about meat-eaters, including meat-eaters who call themselves vegetarians.

Now, if an existing vegetarian society wants to realign themselves as a "anyone eat whatever they want and don't keep talking about not eating meat" society, then that's fine, I guess.

But then they shouldn't be surprised if new vegetarian societies pop up to cater for non-meat-eaters specifically.

And no, vegetarian societies are not anti-meat-eater hate groups.

Some lesbians are in relationships with transwomen.
Then they are bisexual not lesbian. Lesbians are only attracted to female people and transwomen are male.

Don't say things that are untrue and I won't have to correct you

No one cares about your "corrections" because you're just spouting a steady flow of dull TRA talking points we've all heard before, and offering little to no evidence to back any of it up. Across multiple threads. Not sure who you think finds it convincing.

Why do some people get to have their sexuality respected as a firm boundary but others only get the right not to fancy someone on a case by case basis?

Yes, this is exactly it, and no amount of disingenuous squirming changes what's happening here.

Lesbians are same sex attracted women, not bisexual ones.