Do we have it anywhere on record that Stonewall does/does not support people to express their sexuality as exclusively homosexual?

Necessary

I think the definition of a woman is not purely chromosomal. It is a combination of chromosomes, external sex organs and circulating hormones.

I'm sorry, but that is hilarious. It's cargo cult nonsense.

It's like saying "a computer is a combination of electronic circuits, a keyboard, and a plastic box".

So a horse in a plastic box with a keyboard strapped on like a saddle may not be 100% a computer, but may be closer to computer than horse.

Dictionaries have never been my ally to be fair

Im rubbish at spelling and if i asked teachers how to spell a word they’d tell me to look in the dictionary…well if I don’t know how to at least start to spell it how am I supposed to look it up

PurgatoryOfPotholes great post

Sorry, broken link.

"80-95% of people who say they are trans choose to have no medical treatment at all – no surgery, no drugs"
forwomen.scot/did-you-know/

I mean, there are many women that give me tingly feelings...

But no, TW are not women in any way shape or form. So obviously they are never lesbians. (Look at me all on topic and shit!)

So a trans woman may not be 100% a woman , but may be closer to woman than man.

a) most of these male people don't have surgery, only a tiny percentage do

b) regarding the minority who do the resultant "neovagina" is not an actual vagina and they do not have a female reproductive system, but a male one.

So no. A male who has had some cosmetic surgery and taken oestrogen. Still as much male as any other male. Because a male is simply a member of the sex class that produces sperm, not ova, which is what the sex class called female can produce.

I'm happy to respect preferred pronouns and I'd want to be an ally to anyone who has made the tough decision to transition.

I don't want to pick on you Doublevacc, but I think this is an interesting philosophical point I'd like to dig into.

I am a feminist, and I subscribe to this definition of feminism by Andrea Dworkin.

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy in behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who used to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with anymore. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. They all have the same vulnerability to rape, to battery, as children to incest. Poorer women have more vulnerability to prostitution, which is basically a form of sexual exploitation that is intolerable in an egalitarian society, which is the society we are fighting for.

Andrea Dworkin also wanted the transsexuals of her time to have access to state-funded surgery to make their bodies the way they desired, so they didn't end up prostituting themselves to pay for it. I also agree with her on this, and I am supportive of the NHS to funding Evidence Based Treatment for adults.

However, do I have a duty to be an ally to anyone who transitions? Consider Brennan up above. Brennan sexually abused multiple girls. They are of my sex class, and subjected to sexual violence. If Brennan has their penis surgically modified, does that mean Brennan is more entitled to inclusion in the feminist movement than their female victims? Is Brennan more entitled to my advocacy?

Surely I have a choice in whom I fight for?

The question is somewhat academic as of people who say they are trans choose to have no medical treatment at all – no surgery, no drugs [[https://forwomen.scot/did-you-know/]], so Brennan themselves probably won't. But it's something we should iron out, because it's come up.

For example, the serial killer Donna (formerly Douglas) Perry killed at least nine women before having full reassignment surgery.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donna_Perry_(serial_killer)

Am I obliged to care more about Perry because of their penis surgery than I should care about the women in the women's prison where Perry is currently housed?

[quote FloralBunting]I stayed for the promised definition of woman that would prove a TW is a woman, and all I got was this GFery.

😶

I'm not having a go at you crispsarny, just thought I'd add to your very correct point!

I think the definition of a woman is not purely chromosomal. It is a combination of chromosomes, external sex organs and circulating hormones.

So, a ‘man in a dress’ is definitely not a woman, but a fully transitioned trans woman has met point 2 and (some of) point 3, as I think trans women do not have the complex hormonal profile of natal women. Genes do need to be expressed to be relevant.

So a trans woman may not be 100% a woman , but may be closer to woman than man.

I stayed for the promised definition of woman that would prove a TW is a woman, and all I got was this GFery.

😶

Next year...
You thought dictionaries were your allies, but I could always see the day you would have to denounce them.

Next year...
You thought dictionaries were your allies, but I could always see the day you would have to denounce them.

You can add sexism, racism and anti any other protected characteristic to my previous list crispsarny

There are obviously a number of posters who have totally made up their minds on this issue and are not at all open to argument

A) some posters have been on here talking about it for years, theyve masses of links to articles, evidence, statistics etc…they are very open to arguments as long as there is similar research

B) posters like bilinda have also made up their minds on this issue and are not open to arguement

Wanky and captured though Merriam Webster is, they don't actually include males in their definition of "woman", it's "an adult female person" so clearly they only put in the "trans woman" bit to appease genderists.

There are obviously a number of posters who have totally made up their minds on this issue and are not at all open to argument. But I think there are probably many others who are trying to engage with the issues and make up their own minds.

Those of us who 'have totally made up their minds on this issue' have done so after engaging with the issues and making up our own minds. It's because we have read and discussed this so much that we have made up our minds. I think that applies to the majority of people who post here. Periodically someone posts an 'are we the baddies?' thread, as there is always that niggling doubt that perhaps there is something we've missed and we've got this wrong. But there is never any really convincing counter argument.

But I also think it must be awful to feel you are trapped in the wrong body and to feel so rejected by both toxic masculinity and by feminists.

You sound as though you are suggesting feminists have something in common with toxic masculinity. I'm sure you didn't mean to do this. Women who are standing up for the rights of women and protection of children have nothing in common with 'toxic masculinity'.

I'm happy to respect preferred pronouns and I'd want to be an ally to anyone who has made the tough decision to transition.

What 'tough decisions' do you think 'anyone' who transitions has made? Alex Drummond or Danielle Muscato for example?

Reasoned?! All I see is homophobic victim blaming bile.

and misogyny, don't forget the misogyny. Homophobia and misogyny run through this like the lettering in a stick of rock.