Gay man 'bullied' off Manchester Pride for wearing LGB Alliance hat and t-shirt

The only reason for a blacklist is to impose your own Maccarthyite rule, to undermine to rule of law, freedom and democracy.

Who manages them? The gestapo, stasi or other secret police.

How are they updated? Informers, including malicious neighbours and coworkers. Accuracy is irrelevant.

I can understand the reasons for them, but who manages them? And if they are maintained on a computer, they automatically come inside GDPR. I think even if maintained on a card index, GDPR can apply. How is accuracy assured? How are updates performed?

Yup.

Black lists are just sinister even if they started with good intentions

That’s both encouraging and worrying! I hope they are taking this homophobia more seriously. But I can’t imagine Lesbians ever having the power to create a watch list. I’d worry that if the list makers got taken over by the coup,

that feminists could be on the wrong side of things.

Something has changed.

I use a gym in Wythenshawe, Manchester. I occasionally meet a fellow member who is a gay chap. He moved out of Wythenshawe but only a few miles away. I moved up the road a decade ago, but still like to visit 'Wythie'. We connected years ago because both of us knew Caroline Aherne - he through work, and myself because I grew up just a few streets away from her families council house.

This morning (and with his permission to share the following) he told me that the Manchester Pride had indeed provoked a response.

There's been a 'Watch List' of homophobes updated and used for years now. Some firms in Manchester have access to it, and it is shared with other Watch Lists nationwide. The idea is to identify homophobes, particularly those who are promoting such views, and where necessary, easing them out of prominent roles, or ensuring their promotion route is interrupted. So basically 'cancel culture', but one established years ago, even before the term was invented!

He wouldn't tell me how many names are on the list, but it did increase in number after the Manchester Pride. I asked how does someone get added to the list? He wouldn't tell me, but asked me if I had anyone in mind? I suggested the name of a particular LibDem councillor candidate just a few miles away, but she's apparently already on the list!

I've known of Watch Lists before; I've seen a digital one for anti-semites in Manchester, and I know it's still being maintained. So one dedicated to identifying homophobes would perhaps be expected.

And

Apparently at Manchester Pride there were some attendees who had the not-very-brilliant-idea to go to Manchester's Gay Village and cause some damage (apparently to warn the gay community off from opposing the transgender cause). They were trying to drum-up support but struggled to get much enthusiasm, which is perhaps a credit to those attending, or perhaps a recognition on their part about what the next morning's headlines would be. Next year's Pride weekend could be interesting!

I'm really surprised @suggestionsplease1 hasn't responded to your post on the September at 03.37, Purgatory, really, truly surprised.

To say we are all one big happy family is the biggest bull I have ever heard, only surpassed by claims that lesbians even HAVE a place at the table. We are same-sex attracted, yet are treated like possible sperm receptacles. The saddest story I heard was from a young lesbian at a bar with her "queer" friends. A transwoman asked her to dance, and when she declined her friends gave so much crap and called her a bigot that she felt forced into it.
This adult MAN then pushed his fully erect penis into her for the entire duration.
I stand by this: The most dangerous place for a lesbian is at any event with lgbt-xyz's.

[quote suggestionsplease1]**@merrymouse* and @RedDogsBeg* whereas conceptually issues of identity and sexuality can be clearly defined, the lived experience is a good bit more convoluted than that amongst the community.

There are people who have started out feeling their gender is what is different but later feel that it is their sexuality, and vice versa. The lived experience is complex for many (but not all of course, I have never questioned my gender identity despite fitting many of the stereotypes associated with the male sex better)

So we risk harming many amongst us when we seek to divide and segregate. It is better to foster an atmosphere of inclusiveness and openness where people are allowed to change minds and not feel that they have to double down on a gender identity for example, which they may later feel is not what was at stake, but rather their sexuality instead. The segregation of interests pushes people into boxes, it becomes harder psychologically to move out of those boxes as the 'us Vs them' mentality is trapping.[/quote]
This is precisely one of the things that LGB Alliance is campaigning about.

Having gender dysphoria or being gender non-conforming as a child does not automatically mean someone will identify as transgender as an adult. Most of the time, these children will grow out of their gender dysphoria, and often grow up to be lesbian, gay or bisexual. For a small minority, transition might be the right course of action if nothing else works to alleviate their persistent gender dysphoria. We support these people in pursuing any course of treatment or intervention they choose – as adults. There should be no pharmaceutical or surgical intervention for children with gender dysphoria, since growing numbers of people, increasingly young women, are coming forward to express their profound regret for having gone down that path.

lgballiance.org.uk/endconversiontherapy/

And those voices are also notable for their almost entire silence when they are shown to have been dramatically wrong. Witness the recent 'Oh look! The WiSpa thing wasn't a hoax, colour me surprised!' threads. It did happen, the poor transwoman with his delicate lady-dick from which girls should avert their gaze turns out to be a serial sex-offender and lo,
**

Yeah, I mean you have to give a little bit of credit to Laurie Penny for at least bringing up the WiSpa thing again, even though her tweets make no sense whatsoever! The rest of them seem to have quietly backed away, looking around themselves and whistling.

According to Dentons transgenderism deliberately set out to force team with the LGB community suggestionsplease1. It's perfectly plain that LGB people reversing that is a problem that needs tackling.

None of these other groups have set out with a remit to ideologically segregate the larger community.

See?

There are people who have started out feeling their gender is what is different but later feel that it is their sexuality, and vice versa.

You seem to be describing people who are same sex attracted, but who feel or have felt they might be a heterosexual in the wrong body.

You should be able to understand why for some gay people this seems like conversion therapy. I agree that people who are same sex attracted experience prejudice regardless of how they identify, but it should be easy to understand why ‘I thought I was gay but actually I’m a man’ could be troubling. At the very least it should be possible to acknowledge concerns without accusing people of hatred or phobia.

What you haven’t explained is the overlap with TQ+ which is such a broad category that it is difficult to know who it would exclude.

All this forced teaming is a bit desperate, really.

It’s also ahistorical as can be. There has always been tension, sometimes conflict between the L, G and B since long before the T was appended- lesbians feeling that there’s too much focus on issues relating to gay men, bisexuals feeling that they’re being treated as second class, the tensions that shedbuilder mentioned above over whether Pride is for “mainstreaming” LGB people by emphasising the everyday activities we all share, or whether the point is to celebrate the differences by focusing more on diverse aspects of sexual expression (leather, kink etc) and a whole host of other differences of opinion.

It’s just bollocks to suggest there is one big happy family with united aims and there always has been. There have always been a multitude of different groups within, who agree to set aside differences to work together on important issues, acknowledging the strength in unity.

I completely agree that we should not be setting people against each other, but the point of this thread is that doing so would mean that it was completely unacceptable for people to bully a gay man off a Pride March for wearing a t shirt from an organisation that he feels affinity to on account of his sexuality!

And as purgatory says above, you can’t demonise de transitioners and then waffle on about how disparate organisations prevent people from changing sides. As you say, it’s not always that clear cut. We have to allow for people to change their minds. But there can be no forgiveness in this current expression of social justice, which is depressing as hell.

None of these other groups have set out with a remit to ideologically segregate the larger community.

Yes, they very much have by imposing an ideology and insisting that those who disagree must be banished.

[quote suggestionsplease1]@freddykreugerswife, that's simply not true.

Of course there are multiple subdivisions of marchers celebrating their unique identities within the larger community...they haven't formed in protest of a larger grouping of people, they have formed and they gather and march to highlight their interests, be that dykes on bike, armed forces, gamer communities etc...Theirs is a joyful promotion of the things that are relevant in their lives.

LGB Alliance formed in specific protest to the larger group, to divide and delineate and to say "your interests are not our interests".

None of these other groups have set out with a remit to ideologically segregate the larger community.

What did the LGB Alliance T shirt celebrate? Homosexuality? No. Not at all. EVERYONE was there celebrating homosexuality. That is a given at Pride, and probably the least salient feature amongst marchers. It's purpose was to separate the T from LGB, to exclude, to tell much valued members of our community they are not welcome. And the community stood up said no to that.[/quote]
Again, re-read my post, @suggestionsplease1 . What you said is simply not true. LGB focusses on SEXUALITY. Not gender. It is no more wanting to 'exclude' transgender than Bears want to 'exclude' clean shaven gay men, or Dykes on Bikes want to 'exclude' gay men, or bi-sexuals.

You are wrong. And looking for an argument where there is none, because you want to exclude LBG people. You are the one who is being exclusionary.

Another good point there Purgatory. And a very clear example of the illusion of inclusivity that must be perpetuated at all costs. That ‘we represent everyone’s needs’ until it is pointed out repeatedly that actually the organisation doesn’t.

Just like the glee and celebration of the abuse and assault of a lone gay man for simply wearing a LGB Alliance shirt doesn’t serve as a warning for anyone thinking to find representation elsewhere, does it? The more posts that I read about supposedly why Alex ‘deserved’ his abuse and assault, the clearer the emotionally manipulative side of these organisations becomes. Under the illusion of ‘most inclusive’ which in turn gives the illusion of most caring and supporting when actions of the members and leaders seem to be the antithesis of these things.

A bit got snipped.

"Her email went unanswered, so she wrote again this time politely offering to meet over a coffee to discuss “some of the issues potentially facing transmen in the community who wish to detransition and live as lesbians.”

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/06/jo-bartosch-on-the-gobby-lesbian-challenging-macc-pride-over-transmen-who-wish-to-detransition-and-live-as-lesbians-and-she-should-know-shes-keira-bells-partner/

extract
As rainbow flags are being unfurled across the world for Pride month, spare a thought for Rebekah Wershbale. A proud “gobby lesbian” Wershbale has been frozen out of her local Pride march in Macclesfield, known as Macc Pride.

Wershbale is partnered with Keira Bell, the detransitioned young woman at the centre of the legal battle around the treatment of gender dysphoric youth. In January 2020, Wershbale attempted to raise the matter of the lack of support for detransitioners with Macc Pride. Firstly, she was ignored, then her social media comments were deleted and ultimately cast-out of community organising.

(Continues)

Her email went unanswered, so she wrote again this time politely offering to meet over a coffee to discuss “some of the issues potentially facing bians.”

In her email she explained:

“This is a topic that is affecting lots of young women… We [Wershbale and her partner Keira Bell] aren’t approaching with hostility, all we ask is for discussion of a possible outcome for lesbians who may feel unsupported in their choices if they choose to detransition… Can we go get a coffee and have a chat please? “

Rather than accepting the invitation, a board meeting was called to discuss how to exclude Wershbale and Bell [bold mine]. Chair Denise Hartley-Dickens responded by stating that as an organisation “committed to inclusivity across the whole LGBT+ community”, Macc Pride reserved the right “not give a forum to those who do not embrace the full diversity of this.”

Wershbale tells me “It’s not the most candid ‘fuck off’ I’ve ever received but it’s pretty high up there.” She is still keen to meet with Macc Pride organisers, and has written again outlining her concerns about the high numbers of lesbian and bisexual youth who undergo ‘transition’ before growing to adulthood and recognising themselves to be same-sex attracted.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/06/jo-bartosch-on-the-gobby-lesbian-challenging-macc-pride-over-transmen-who-wish-to-detransition-and-live-as-lesbians-and-she-should-know-shes-keira-bells-partner/

So a lesbian, partnered with a detransitioner, has been kicked out of her Pride, for asking if they could do more to support transmen who might feel they will be rejected if they detransition.

And how did this local Pride react? By confirming that there is less than no support for people like Keira Bell and showing any local transmen that they too can get expelled by the LGBT community if they detransition to live as lesbians.

So @suggestionsplease1, I agree that you're addressing the wrong people here. Talk to that Pride committee.

What they are asked to do is substantiate their argument/s, which they rarely do.

How can they when their assertions are based on emotional manipulation and hyperbole?

The segregation of interests pushes people into boxes, it becomes harder psychologically to move out of those boxes as the 'us Vs them' mentality is trapping.

The only ‘us vs them’ mentality is fostered by those calling the LGB Alliance a hate group for focusing on LGB. Your entire explanation drips of control and manipulation and, infantilises trans people by saying they cannot simply change organisations when and if they want to. It is entirely flawed thinking that a mature adult can not simply change membership as their needs change.

And again it seems that someone has appointed themselves as a spokesperson for all trans people as well as all LGB people.

Who benefits from restricting choice here? Those who restrict choice are not serving the greater good when the ‘one supposedly inclusive organisation’ is the one that prioritises one group over the others but creates emotional barriers to leaving that membership.

And there is that deliberate use of hyperbole again. ’So we risk harming many amongst us when we seek to divide and segregate.’

‘Harmful’? Really? I would mention what type of organisation needs their members to feel that leaving would be detrimental to their very wellbeing to this extent, that no other group can love them like that group. All the while, the group is doing everything it can to remove any competitive group by any means, including labeling as a hate group and vexatious claims. But the very mention of that type of group risks a deletion. But I am sure others see what I mean.

there are some lone voices that attempt to stand against the tide of GC feminism, and they are often ridiculed, misrepresented, hounded, treated with contempt - is that bullying or not?

No they're not, and no it isn't. What they are asked to do is substantiate their argument/s, which they rarely do.

Well that was a load of unintelligible waffle @suggestionsplease1, what you really saying and trying desperately to hide is that according to you there can be NO organisation that solely represents the interests of and celebrates Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual people. How very liberal and progressive, or let's call it what it truly is - homophobia.

Are those organisations listed by CircularReasons anti-LGB? They must be going by the 'logic' in your screed because they act only in the interests of Trans, are all about Trans and therefore exclude LGB.

Suggestions are you suggesting that people's sexualities are choices and can change? Is that not the thinking of those who advocate gay conversion therapy?