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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Book Review: Shon Faye & Helen Joyce

111 replies

MiladyBerserko · 27/08/2021 05:31

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fb7ea1ac-0585-11ec-9bf4-46b41c0cb5c4?shareToken=092b4ac490d84a875beca16b17049e99

Don't think Shon is going to be happy.

OP posts:
irresistibleoverwhelm · 27/08/2021 20:12

@SpindleWhorl -- ooh what subject are you in?

Yes, I work in that area and it's like all the complexity and nuance we were teaching students about ten years ago has just disappeared! I have a colleague - who's quite famous as an internet provocateur - who knows their stuff on race inside out but as soon as you mention sex/gender it's exactly like you describe - their brain drops out and you just hear daft internet slogans.

Many people in my department are quietly GC and just keeping their heads down because of the toxicity of the debate and the sheer unreasonableness of the student body (especially women who are worried about their jobs). We mutter to each other about it at social events but don't dare address it otherwise. And then sometimes you get the odd colleague who really has swallowed all the guff. I was in the middle of moaning about students putting their pronouns on Zoom to someone I assumed, from their work, was pretty sensible - oh no. She started saying that everyone should just refer to each other as 'they' and do away with all other pronouns - cue the rest of us in the conversation doing the smile, nod, edge away dance....

(Interestingly she was the only one of us there without children - I guess if you don't have them, it doesn't occur just how patently ridiculous it would be to speak to small children using only 'they' as a pronoun for everyone....)

SpindleWhorl · 27/08/2021 19:53

@irresistibleoverwhelm, I'm think you've hit on a lot of the discomfort I've been feeling about academics in my subject talking about 'identity' and 'identities'.

They actually do understand sex and gender, and the historiography of 20th and 21st century gender studies.

They do understand semiotics, linguistics, feminist history, class-based oppression, colonialism, orientalism, race theories, philosophical ideas and theoretical approaches.

But say 'transgender' and their brains drop out and it's like a bloody South Park sketch.

Jaysmith71 · 27/08/2021 19:48

They had their anti-carcereal* demo a while back at the Home Office, demanding the release of all Trans prisonsers and the right of the Trans community to build their own prisons.

It was gently pointed out to them that they were picketing, and occupying the foyer, or the wrong govt. dept. They wanted the Justice Ministry, round the corner.

(* new word for me: I thought, What have Lynxes got to do with this?)

NiceGerbil · 27/08/2021 19:13

I'm surprised anti carceral is in there. It makes more sense in the context it came about- the USA. It makes no sense when applied to the UK or indeed other countries.

I've not seen arguments as to why it would be a good thing here so if anyone reads it would be interested to hear the reasoning!

irresistibleoverwhelm · 27/08/2021 18:54

I’ve found myself musing (and even googling) over the past few days about these groups. I couldn’t find much, but there didn’t seem to be any indication that any of them were considered to be women within their societies. I don’t know how much access to single sex spaces exists in those countries where these “third gender” groups exist but I wondered how the claim that such groups have always existed interacts with the current western demand that these men are women and must be treated as such.

I think most of these groups were historically homosexual. The gender aspect was a way of socially signalling homosexuality. The complexities of these different kinds of cultural forms completely escape the trans lobby though - they all get appropriated as evidence that all these people were in fact "trans" avant la lettre -- which is cultural imperialism at its finest, despite the fact they also all complain about "western colonialism"!

Just because lesbian women in history cross-dressed, for example, this did not mean they understood themselves to be "trans" in the modern sense. Often clothes were one of the few ways of signalling gay or lesbian sexuality to others. And even women who believed themselves to have a "masculine" temperament did not necessarily believe themselves (or want to be) actual men. Dressing and taking on "masculine" gestures was often done for effect as a performance of alternative sexuality, or sexual desire, not as an expression of an inner "identity".

Even people who believed in the Havelock Ellis/Krafft-Ebing "inversion" theory of homosexuality did not understand it in quite the same way trans activists think of "trans" now (and most actually disliked those theories - the protagonist of Radclyffe Hall's The Well of Loneliness is actually profoundly disturbed by encountering them, and Hall was deeply ambivalent about them despite cross-dressing herself).

Doing something because it's the only way your culture allows you to express homosexuality, for example, or get an education, or live as an intersex person, or make your living as part of a marginalised community, does not mean that's the same as having an inner "identity". Gender ideology deliberately collapses the two.

It just doesn't seem to occur to many contemporary trans activists that dressing a certain way in order to perform a social signal (ie. to let other women know you are lesbian), is not, and has never been, exactly the same as "expressing an identity".

The very idea of "identity" is itself a recent, modern Western construction, which doesn't really replicate the way people lived and thought of themselves in the past, or map on to the ways people experience their lives and selves in other cultures.

The irony of activists who are completely caught up in extremely historically specific formulations of Western identity politics, then claiming they are liberating us from Western colonial ideas! It's completely topsy-turvy! (And dreadfully Western and imperialist of them Grin)

Ibizan · 27/08/2021 17:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/08/2021 17:34

Yes indeed - surely if Faye was a genuine anticapitalist radical thinker, Faye would release Faye’s book on the internet as an open source document free for all to read…?

Quite Grin I mean, get your manifesto to the people

TheHandmadeTails · 27/08/2021 16:37

Analysis, history, philosophy AND jokes. The naughty corner at its finest.

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/08/2021 14:33

"I want an OOmpa LOOpa! I want you to get me an OOmpa LOOmpah right away!!!!!"
😂
But yes. Absolutely.

Helleofabore · 27/08/2021 14:20

@NecessaryScene

There was much merriment a few weeks back on Twitter where a load of Shon types were responding to a thread with what they would do after the revolution.

A lot of the answers were like this. Remarkably few seemed to be planning to do any serious work.

I love it.

Sooo.... haven't quite grasped that it will not be quite YOUR farm to do with it what you wished, eh under that political regime? I guess all the other 'worker bees' on that farm will simply barter for that person's services because obviously in self sufficiency those services are so vital in enlightening others. Maybe they simply meant they wanted a 'commune' on their individual farm.

Jaysmith71 · 27/08/2021 14:04

@ArabellaScott

members of the Oxford Socialist Society who graciously informed me that I did not know what communism/socialism is because no one who lived in Eastern block countries had any real experience of living in a communist/socialist society.

Wild. I had an Asian colleaque years back who was told (by white western students) that she was racist for writing about Asia. I can't remember the exact reasoning, but it was twisted, ridiculous and horrible. She was subject to a Twitter pile on for not doing 'ethnicity' correctly according to these American brats.

Sounds as good as the "Stop The War" demo in Parliament Square charied by Diane Abbott who refused to let any actual Syrians speak on the subject of American imperialism being the cause of the Syrian conflict.

But Western Lefites have long been like that, espacially after 68, when it all split into the critical Eurocommunists, the loyal 'tankies' and the Trots who dammed the Eastern Bloc as 'state Capitalism.'

NecessaryScene · 27/08/2021 13:32

Pretty much universally, all these "third genders" were single-sex. Grin

AnyOldPrion · 27/08/2021 13:29

Terryleather, you are on fire! 🔥

Love the Oompah-loompa reference.

Just like trans ideologues attempt to co-opt other cultural practices that aren’t really like transgender thinking at all (two-spirit, Hijra, etc.).

I’ve found myself musing (and even googling) over the past few days about these groups. I couldn’t find much, but there didn’t seem to be any indication that any of them were considered to be women within their societies. I don’t know how much access to single sex spaces exists in those countries where these “third gender” groups exist but I wondered how the claim that such groups have always existed interacts with the current western demand that these men are women and must be treated as such. I definitely get the feeling this is another of those arguments that has to be welded in place in the heat created by the intense friction from cognitive dissonance.

irresistibleoverwhelm · 27/08/2021 13:24

I would read their book but in line with their thoughts on capitalism I won't insult them by paying for it.

Yes indeed - surely if Faye was a genuine anticapitalist radical thinker, Faye would release Faye’s book on the internet as an open source document free for all to read…?

PankhurstConnection · 27/08/2021 13:19

I agree. Shon seems quite uninformed as to what that demand actually means in practice. There's research showing that the more individualistic a society is, the higher the numbers of late-onset transitioners. Because communist societies place the collective good above the individual good, no resources would, for instance, be put into trans needs for what are mostly cosmetic surgeries. You wouldn't even be able to argue for it without repercussion, because that would be deemed too focused on personal gain, too individualistic. Too selfish. (That applies across the board. If meeting your needs means diverting resources away from the greater good, it simply wouldn't fly.)

This type of society asks you to subordinate your own wishes and desires and focus meeting the needs of the many. At all times. There's not even paying your dues and waiting your turn. Your turn never comes.

Absolutely Charley, there is a huge inconsistency between wanting capitalism abolished and being trans. Transitioning relies heavily on pharmaceutical input and a variety of external indications that one is living in one's chosen gender such as makeup, jewelry, clothing. This kind of individualism (or societal expense) would not be tolerated in a society which thinks in collective terms. It seems to me that gender ideology is incompatible with communism.

Similarly (and as is often pointed out on here) abolishing the police seems to be an odd position to take for a cohort so utterly reliant on them to police those with dissenting views.

There are so many inconsistencies between what Faye seems to want from society and how we see 'gender rules' play out in society. I would read their book but in line with their thoughts on capitalism I won't insult them by paying for it.

PankhurstConnection · 27/08/2021 13:09

@terryleather

If Shon's book doesn't have a randy budgie pecking a mirror on its front cover I will be sorely disappointed....
Much amusement Grin
irresistibleoverwhelm · 27/08/2021 13:06

The “there can be no trans liberation under capitalism” thing is laughable - as Floral and others point out, trans ideology is inherently Western and capitalist: individualist, couldn’t exist without a history of Greek idealism and Christian religious dualism, essentially consumerist and reliant on surgery and quite literally buying the right accessories, medicines and procedures. It literally couldn’t exist without all these, which makes the claims that gender binaries are oppressive Western colonialist ideology really pretty laughable.

Just like trans ideologues attempt to co-opt other cultural practices that aren’t really like transgender thinking at all (two-spirit, Hijra, etc.). This is nothing but pure Western cultural appropriation whilst simultaneously trying to argue that they are the anticolonialist, anticapitalist ones!

Faye might have studied law, but that isn’t in practice a discipline which lends itself to much critical thinking about the wider history of philosophy, to be honest. And Faye clearly doesn’t understand the first thing about Marxism (like many other woke “anticapitalist” internet warriors who throw terms about to look clever).

Marxism is at its root completely antithetical to transgender ideology, as are the various manifestations of practical and ideological communism. You couldn’t be a real Marxist and also believe in gender ideology - it just doesn’t work; the one undoes the other! Helen Joyce’s work is much more purely Marxist (most GC feminism is ultimately Marxist influenced at the base).

NecessaryScene · 27/08/2021 12:27

Anyway back to the article, it was really good, and clearly laid out the difference between the two. Trans being a well researched book, t'other being an emotive one sided piece of work.

Mmm, but isn't that sort of joint review super super problematic?

It's a violent non-consensual co-platforming with an extreme bigot. At the very least!

Thinking of Helen at this difficult time. Flowers

Rubidium · 27/08/2021 12:23

Faye is the product of a very "If..." style expensive boys private school, and is very vague about their higher education. "Studied Law," but no indication of where or for how long.

Faye went to Oxford. Articles Faye wrote for Cherwell while studying there are still available online.

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2021 12:21

members of the Oxford Socialist Society who graciously informed me that I did not know what communism/socialism is because no one who lived in Eastern block countries had any real experience of living in a communist/socialist society.

Wild. I had an Asian colleaque years back who was told (by white western students) that she was racist for writing about Asia. I can't remember the exact reasoning, but it was twisted, ridiculous and horrible. She was subject to a Twitter pile on for not doing 'ethnicity' correctly according to these American brats.

AfternoonToffee · 27/08/2021 12:20

Haven't quite understood the concept of communism there then.

Anyway back to the article, it was really good, and clearly laid out the difference between the two. Trans being a well researched book, t'other being an emotive one sided piece of work.

ArabellaScott · 27/08/2021 12:17

'teaching classes on my farm' - oh excellent. Husbandry?

NecessaryScene · 27/08/2021 12:10

There was much merriment a few weeks back on Twitter where a load of Shon types were responding to a thread with what they would do after the revolution.

A lot of the answers were like this. Remarkably few seemed to be planning to do any serious work.

Book Review: Shon Faye & Helen Joyce
CharlieParley · 27/08/2021 12:03

@FloralBunting

I'm going to read it.

I'm intrigued to see if Shon makes the proclamation that the there can be no trans liberation under capitalism, or if they make the actual case for it.

Because it seems to me that Genderism functions on an engine which is pure consumerist capitalism. Have great swathes of people believe there is something they need and don't have, that their bodies or physical reality is wrong in such a way that can only be seen if they either pay to alter themselves or buy special identity items to signal to others who they are. And get all this legally enforced so that everyone is compelled to play along with the scheme?

Surprise me Shon.

I agree. Shon seems quite uninformed as to what that demand actually means in practice. There's research showing that the more individualistic a society is, the higher the numbers of late-onset transitioners. Because communist societies place the collective good above the individual good, no resources would, for instance, be put into trans needs for what are mostly cosmetic surgeries. You wouldn't even be able to argue for it without repercussion, because that would be deemed too focused on personal gain, too individualistic. Too selfish. (That applies across the board. If meeting your needs means diverting resources away from the greater good, it simply wouldn't fly.)

This type of society asks you to subordinate your own wishes and desires and focus meeting the needs of the many. At all times. There's not even paying your dues and waiting your turn. Your turn never comes.

Like I couldn't apply for the course I wanted to do, because the powers that be had decreed there was no need for it. There was however a need for civil engineers, so that's what I applied for. And if you were lucky enough to be accepted, on graduating you had to work where they sent you (for a few years). So my dad had to move to a godforsaken village to teach there for three years. Nobody cared that they hated newcomers or that this took him far away from home. You couldn't even complain because that would be ungrateful after having been given the privilege of a university education.

Mind you, the problem of people in the West really not understanding what communism and socialism mean in practice is most definitely not limited to Shon. I had a lovely chat once with members of the Oxford Socialist Society who graciously informed me that I did not know what communism/socialism is because no one who lived in Eastern block countries had any real experience of living in a communist/socialist society. Coz we did it all wrong.

Deluded fools. They displayed precisely the attitude our leaders did.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/08/2021 11:54

What a stroke of genius to read and review both those books together. It's very evident from the article that the writer isn't impressed with Shon Faye's ideological and outlandish vision, compared with Helen Joyce's clear and intelligent arguments that persuade the reader to accept her points.

It's always nice to see people draw their own conclusions when they really read transactivist material and compare it with the 'gender critical' or feminist arguments.

As said by a previous poster, it's similar to the ploppers we get on these boards that drop by with their mad accusations and guilt tripping - no reason or intelligent discussion from their side. And the lurkers can see the difference for themselves.