Guardian long read by Shon Faye about trans children

I often think it is better to show what we mean using the words in pro trans articles so that people can relax about what they are reading.

This from the Guardian describes what was going on with the adults and schools behind three transitioned children:

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/15/trans-transgender-children-gender-family-project

Liking things stereotypically assumed as being for boys but being forced to present as stereotypically feminine; watching a TV show aged 6 about trans people and more stereotypes; homophobic bullying at school plus homophobic parental attitude. And with all three examples thriving on the attention of the medical professionals, therapists and youth group.

I can see that for a parent worried about their child, who has been told they will kill themselves if they don't transition, gaining trans status for them must initially feel like a forcefield of protection. It is so sad that these children weren't able to access the attention they needed without telling them that their bodies were wrong. It is so sad that the bullying was not dealt with. And it is so sad that the parents didn't question their own sexist, homophobic beliefs.

not one of them will now believe her when she says she's not transgender. Believing people only works one way it seems.

I'm sorry she's experiencing this. It must be so traumatic to have to be constantly reminded of the decision she made at a much younger age. You're right that it only seems to go one way. Which must make it so much harder for those who realise they were wrong to be able to step back, express doubts and make the change back again.

A lot of, what looks like, internalised homophobia stemming from school bullies from Shon there. Shon has my every sympathy for having to enduring bullying at school. People can be merciless in protecting their own status by projecting their insecurities onto others.

I really can't be doing with 'children are trans if they say they are' ideology. My dd identified as trans for 4 years, was immediately accepted as trans by all clinicians, but as soon as she started having her own doubts, she was dismissed. She still has help for her mental health, but it's now been 5 years since she identified as trans. Every single new clinician she sees brings up the trans history, not one of them will now believe her when she says she's not transgender. Believing people only works one way it seems.

This book is being touted by TRAs as offering groundbreaking insight into trans lives. It was the subject of a bidding war I think. Am I to understand that it's just a list of exactly the same easily refuted hyperbolic arguments that every two bit anime avatar on Twitter spouts?

so as expected it's very strong on emotion, 'its just like section 28' and if you dont go along with every demand you're literal child killers hyperbole?

I'll read excerpts from Shon's book or indeed Shon's entire book if Shon is willing to read Helen Joyce's book

somehow I doubt that would ever happen so i wont give this nonsense one further iota of my time

I don't have time or inclination to read this, I'm too busy enjoying my erasure.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ekc_aR5LyAk

One theme in Kate and Joe’s story, which recurs in many accounts of trans children attempting to express a variant identity, is the initial reluctance of most parents to fully affirm that their child is another gender.

This is true. I've been reading, as part of something I'm doing, every single account of a parent with a trans child I can find, and every one tells of a young child who liked things or clothes stereotypically associated with the opposite sex, and nearly every time at least one parent was keen to prevent this, some of them violently, because they were anti-gay, embarrassed, or wedded to traditional gender roles.

The conclusion that this means there are lots of 'trans children' and not lots of sexist, homophobic parents is utterly baffling.

One theme in Kate and Joe’s story, which recurs in many accounts of trans children attempting to express a variant identity, is the initial reluctance of most parents to fully affirm that their child is another gender.

..is another gender. What does this mean?

"in fact, there aren’t greater numbers of children asserting a trans identity than there were in the past. There are simply more children who feel able to talk about it openly and seek support and advocacy from their parents."

So where are all the middle aged women transitioning to become men? The teenage girls of twenty/thirty/forty years ago, who are no longer under their parents' control? Because if the uptick in teenage girls transitioning to become boys was a real thing, wouldn't we see that reflected in older women who never had the opportunity to transition when they were younger? Or does Shon only care about males?

The cynical might think that's because pinning it down to an exact definition would open the door to a concrete discussion of bslancing trans needs and appropriate support against the needs and appropriate support of other disadvantaged or vulnerable groups instead of the current "If as a trans person I feel I must have this that is proof I must have it so it's negating and hateful to deny me."

Also: if, in "the past", trans kids could not speak to their parents (or anyone else), and therefore didn't receive the help and treatment they needed, did they all commit suicide (which we're always being told will be the next thing that happens) and do these figures appear in the statistics?

This sort of casual sloppiness is enraging: "For those unacquainted with trans people, it might seem that in the past decade there has been a huge rise in children expressing issues with their birth-assigned gender. This is a perilous misunderstanding of the reality; in fact, there aren’t greater numbers of children asserting a trans identity than there were in the past. There are simply more children who feel able to talk about it openly and seek support and advocacy from their parents."

1. How do you know? If you don't want to go into it, can we at least have a footnote or something that at least in very broad terms explains why you are so sure that there are no more trans children than "in the past" (which part of "the past"? where?)

1. "for those unacquainted with trans people -" this is a very telling mistake. If this sentence makes any sense at all, she means "for those unacquainted with trans issues." But she isn't saying that - she's saying "trans people" or in other words blatantly coming out and saying "unless you hang around as friends with lots of trans people and are very tight with trans activists, you won't have been correctly brain washed about this yet." If what she is asserting, or sloppily trying to assert, in this sentence, was actually true, you would not have to know any trans people at all to be able to read statistical trends (where from? What trends? See point 1) and understand whether there are more trans children now than at any other given time.

I can't believe she gets away with this as journalism, let alone in a book. (to be fair, the book might be tighter and better edited - this might have been sloppily shortened for the paper. But it still shows how she thinks - "if you're a friend of trans people, which you should be, you will think like this, and believe that, and I don't have to give you facts or statistics to show why.")

It is however useful to remember the vilely homophobic atmosphere of schools in the 80s. If you were there and if you were gender non-conforming then you were traumatised. Even if you personally were not gender non-conforming, you could be traumatised to witness it. I think it's important to see what is happening in the name of trans rights in the context of that trauma.

There have always been deluded parents and outright abusive parents. We should be able to rely on professionals to see through the verbiage and advocate for the child's best interests. Sadly, many professionals are also on the bandwagon.

It's in the Graun.

Can 100% predict the line it will take. Not wasting my time and not giving them clicks.

It not difficult to predict these sorts of articles, particularly by people like Faye, and particularly in publications like the Guardian. There’s no way they’d want to instil doubt in the reader by giving the example of:

“Alex*, born female, is under the guardianship of social services but in the care of ‘his’ grandparents. Alex has been the victim of abuse, suspected sexual abuse but unable to be proven. There is also the suspicion of fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. Alex spends all of ‘his’ time on Discord. Alex told people ‘he’ was trans and a boy last week, having never expressed such sentiments before.”

(*based on an amalgamation of real cases).

It befits the narrative more if they convince people that all of these kids are clear of thought and have always expressed the view they’re of the opposite sex, when the reality is the exact opposite. Every single pro “trans kids” article I’ve seen has a story like that so I’m not surprised I was right in predicting this one would too. It’s pure propaganda.

Those who were pushed down that route by their parents are noticeably quiet on the matter.

We are sleepwalking into a safeguarding nightmare…

Experiencing something does not quality you as an expert???

How many of those actively pushing for medical interventions to "fix" children turning them into medical cases for life have gone through this process themselves?

The thing I don’t get about all of this is wtf qualifies shon or any of the arseholes who are telling us what we should do.

Experiencing something does not quality you as an expert???

Remember the good old days when people had to be taught and educated on a subject before they could claim to share knowledge and make recommendations?

I was watching an interview with Blaire White the other day. She would describe herself as a classic transexual, i.e. knew from a very young age, persisted and is happier now having had some surgical interventions, but interestingly she said she is glad she never had any treatment pre-puberty as it would have completely messed her up and it was better for her to discover things in good time and deal with it as an adult.

Knowing who the author is I'll give the article a miss, thanks.

I assume it's an excerpt from Faye's new book, is it?

Yep.

I assume it's an excerpt from Faye's new book, is it?

How extraordinary that a liberal paper like the Guardian is now promoting the sterilisation of children.

It’s pushing hard on the nothing at all to do with stereotypes isn’t it?

For some trans people it’s all about the stereotypes and very little to do with wanting to be the opposite sex (e.g non-binary identities). Which is fine but it’s just not the same thing at all.

I really feel that those with body (I.e. sex) dysphoria who used to be known as transsexual are very much being let down by everyone else being shoved under the ‘trans’ umbrella and used when convenient (as in this article) to prove the point that ‘it’s not about stereotypes’.