Guardian long read by Shon Faye about trans children

Yup

This is what pisses me off - a small boy who likes dolls and frills is not a bloody problem.

He's not gay, or trans, or confused. He's just a boy who likes those things. Everything else is imposed on him externally.

He might grow up and change his mind about those things. He might grow up to be a gay man. He might grow up and still love dolls and frills, and be heterosexual and there isn't anything wrong with any of these possibilities.

He won't ever be anything but male - a boy when he's small and a man when he matures.

This is so fucking straightforward it makes my teeth itch to have to say it.

Has anyone ever sat down with Shon, or Owen Jones or any other TRA and asked calmly and politely...

What should we do about a child who is merely being a child (by exploring their identity, not fitting old fashioned stereotypes, expressing themselves). Do we have to ‘do’ anything, validate anything or just accept that child for who they are?

Like 80-90% of gender non-conforming children, my issues were resolved at puberty
The problem is this idea that a gender non-conforming child has issues that need to be resolved. It’s ok to be gender non-conforming. My son refuses to have his hair cut and at the moment he’s obsessed with dolls and Hello Kitty. That doesn’t imply anything about his sex or gender.

Comments on FB are overwhelmingly along the lines of GC or WTF?

He doesn’t need the trappings of girlhood - he doesn’t need female clothes or toys.

Except later in the article it says:

After one shopping trip to buy clothes – entirely from the girls’ section – Alex still got upset in the car home

So there is something important to Alex about wearing clothes from the girls' section.

Finally it’s disappointing that shon hasn’t addressed the fact (known since the 1980s!) that there is no trans kid to trans adult pipeline. Trans kids do not become trans adults and the two conditions are not related. Trans kids mostly desist and become gay and bisexual. Trans adults who say they were trans children are mostly engaging in confabulation. Like I said, we’ve known this for a long time so why is shon pressing this myth that trans kids eventually turn into trans adults ?

It's definitely a convenient myth for the trans lobby, and I think we all know why that is. But even if it were true that all trans adults were trans children (and there is certainly no proof of that), it still wouldn't make it true that all children who are now identifying as trans will grow up to be trans adults. In fact, there is evidence that the majority of children who identify as trans desist once they have gone through puberty if they don't have any puberty blocking treatment. It's also easier for them to desist if they haven't had constant affirmation in childhood.

I find it funny that the trans child narrative has shifted before our eyes. They seem to have learned that people aren’t buying the “my child is a girl because she loves dresses and Disney princesses and barbie!” So now this article takes pains to distance Alex from any gender stereotypes whatsoever, leading to the rather odd outcome of a boy repeatedly stating he’s a girl while being completely indifferent to all feminine activities. Ironically, this wouldn’t be enough to qualify Alex as trans under the dsm5 classification as I believe two or three of the criteria have to be hit, and they include wearing girls clothes or liking girls toys. So in their rush to distance Alex from stereotypes they have medically untransed him.

And here’s something else the article doesn’t address. Alex seems happy and content to just be referred to as a girl and to have female pronouns. He doesn’t need the trappings of girlhood - he doesn’t need female clothes or toys. So why is that not enough? Why will Alex need to go through painful surgeries and hormone treatment? Why does affirming his gender identity need any treatment at all, when he seems perfectly fine with how things are?

Finally it’s disappointing that shon hasn’t addressed the fact (known since the 1980s!) that there is no trans kid to trans adult pipeline. Trans kids do not become trans adults and the two conditions are not related. Trans kids mostly desist and become gay and bisexual. Trans adults who say they were trans children are mostly engaging in confabulation. Like I said, we’ve known this for a long time so why is shon pressing this myth that trans kids eventually turn into trans adults ?

Experiencing something does not quality you as an expert???

"Lived Experience" is king. As long as you have the right experience and opinions.

Lived experience as a gender-nonconforming girl who was determined they were a boy until puberty does not count when discussing gender-nonconforming girls determined they are a boy. In this case men who identify as women once they have reached middle age and have had kids is the only lived experience that is deemed relevant when discussing these girls.

If Alex had said they were a dog, (as so many children do) would the parents have been so eager to allow their child to alter their entire life just because of a few comments?

It is also important to remember what benefits can be derived from the dramatic increase in teenage females transitioning. Especially for those males pushing the narrative about trans children.

So, in this article (cannot access as poor WiFi ) do they discuss the significant health risks for transitioning young people and the significant difference in that risk for females vs males?

Any depth of acknowledgment at all?

There's no explanation of what Alex thinks 'being a girl' is, or why Alex is so sure that Alex is a girl when Alex has a boy's body.

Alex doesn't like dolls, likes reading, isn't a 'girly girl' (whatever that means - it's an odd way to describe a male child...), but apparently likes to wear 'girls' clothes'.

Is this just another little boy who has been told that some things are forbidden because they are 'for girls'? Or perhaps bullied and told he must be a girl because he prefers reading to playing football?

Shon doesn't address any of this. Perhaps there's more detail about how you can tell that a young child is 'really trans' in the book.

also you'll be astonished to learn there's a complete lack of specifics covered

do Alex's lovely middle class parents think they'll advocate for Alex to take drugs which will sterilise them and stunt the growth of their genitals? it's an important point to consider (particularly for poor Alex)

Do they expect Alex to use the girls loos at school? how do they think the girls will feel about that? what about sport?

Oh, and Shon? most trans children are female now. no coverage of them though of course

I don't think anyone should be saying they won't read this because of the author. It's always good to see if people you disagree with have something persuasive to say which isn't the case here

they got in a lovely big picture of Shon just to make sure everyone was clear what the article was really about, which is nice

the bit that leapt out to me is Shon's evident outrage about any and all coverage of trans issues. Trans rights activists REALLY want this to be completely under the radar, hence the 'trans children get a brick through their window if you publish an article wondering if girls should have access to single sex toilets' narrative.

the mantra has moved on from 'no debate' to shutup shutup shutup'

Let me have a little guess here: comments not open?
We know how confident the guardian are with this sort of stuff by the fact they allow no discussion. They know their readers disagree.

It is however useful to remember the vilely homophobic atmosphere of schools in the 80s. If you were there and if you were gender non-conforming then you were traumatised.

And the 90's. It was vile. I'm bi, so there were boys that I fancied, but I'd lie as well, because some people did get a bit too close to the truth because I'd sometimes argue against the homophobia. Teachers seemed oblivious to most of what went on, other bullying as well, girls being groped, nothing was ever done. Not that I'm bitter or anything...

every one tells of a young child who liked things or clothes stereotypically associated with the opposite sex, and nearly every time at least one parent was keen to prevent this, some of them violently, because they were anti-gay, embarrassed, or wedded to traditional gender roles.

I liked so much 'boy' stuff as a child, still do. Luckily my parents never had a problem with this - they never said 'no that's only for boys', had enough of that off my peers (and sometimes teachers).

It's so depressing as I thought we trying to move away from shit like that, instead it seems to get more and more re-enforced.

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]I don't have time or inclination to read this, I'm too busy enjoying my erasure.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ekc_aR5LyAk[/quote]

Shon Faye's article about being a man who wears make-up is still there:

www.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/dec/06/my-life-in-makeup

I'm surprised the Guardian haven't removed it, given the Orwellian principle that we're all supposed to now adhere to: Shon Faye is a woman, and Shon Faye has always been a woman, the person known as Sean Faye never existed etc.

In the days when the Guardian used to allow comments on articles about trans issues, they did a piece making mention of Faye as a trans woman, and I wrote a mild comment referencing this 2014 article. It was deleted.

Urgh

I hate all this "inclusion " talk.

How are trans kids not included? They are allowed to do everything everyone else is. The only things that are a problem.is when stuff is a safguarding risk.. such as adults keeping secrets from parents amd the ignoring of single sex spaces requirements. But that's not attempt to exclude. That's safeguarding. Something that's not a personal attack.or a statement about anyone in particular.

This level of creating victims is the problem.

Not perceived lack of inclusion

It’s pushing hard on the nothing at all to do with stereotypes isn’t it?

It starts off like that, but can't avoid them completely. It's not long before Shon can't resist mentioning a shopping trip where all Alex's clothes were bought from the girls' section.

Pre-comment, comment: when talking of pretransition Faye, I will use the appropriate pretransition pronouns.

I remember Shon's first article in the guardian where he wrote of being a man who likes to wear make up. In 2014 if I remember rightly?

What I do remember, really vividly, is a particularly astute assessment of the type of people who will cross a room and fall over themselves in their enthusiasm to compliment the man in makeup on his look in the said makeup.

We see it all the time now, scores of lib fems gushing about "omg your cateye flick is amazing I wish I had your make up skills qween" to certain gentlemen taking a differently motivated interest in Shon and grabbing the opportunity to look liberal and progressive whilst doing so.

So yeah I'd expect Shon's book to be well written, Shon is expensively educated after all. I'm not going to read it. I haven't seen any of the pics either, is Shon wearing an approximation of what adult human females have to wear to be taken seriously or is Shon swanning around through this media campaign in a negligee? I also expect that Shon's extensive plastic surgery won't be a reason to belittle or mock Shon as proof that Shon is shallow or vacuous. It really feels as if it's just not possible for the world to treat Shon in the same way as the world treats women.

My dd identified as trans for 4 years, was immediately accepted as trans by all clinicians, but as soon as she started having her own doubts, she was dismissed. She still has help for her mental health, but it's now been 5 years since she identified as trans. Every single new clinician she sees brings up the trans history, not one of them will now believe her when she says she's not transgender. Believing people only works one way it seems.

That's horrifying. So your daughter (who is now presumably in her late teens or a young adult) is being told by professionals that her beliefs about herself and her identity when she was a much younger child are more important than how she feels now she is older?