Are younger teens and pre-teens rejecting gender woo?

On other parts of MN, however, I've seen references to the growth of 'simps' in school/related WhatsApp or SnapChats - or boys who disdain respect for/assistance to girls/women.

manofmany.com/lifestyle/what-is-a-simp

I'm in no position to assess the relative positions of young people on this.

There are some very reassuring posts here. I’m hoping that we’re moving towards a time when some people don’t try and subsume so many different things into whatever the latest unwieldy version of LGBTQIA…. is.

It’s illogical to put these all together. The LG & B refer to someone’s sexual preferences, and the others to someone’s self-identity. I think it was a mumsnet post I saw that said putting all these together (sexual preferences and self identify) was like trying to pretend parents of children and pet owners were one group. There might be some similarities across the two but you can’t simply bundle them all together.

And yeah, as it seems to be a certain demographic that is so hot on including pronouns in email signatures etc hopefully this will age with them, and date them accordingly. So for now most emails I get that include pronouns are from earnest millennials, so if they keep it up in twenty years time will it be something that is associated with fifty year olds?! And so seem less desirable?

Not pre teen, but older teens. I teach in a mixed sex secondary school, in a subject where the role of men and women are studied frequently. This year, more than ever, I have been worried about teaching one particular module in case the trans debate came up, as due to an internal change in how we teach it, it would have been the first time teaching it since JK Rowling and of course, the Olympics debates. I was anticipating discussions where I would have to shut down debate for getting too emotional. Didn't have any throughout the entire module, and last week, in the final lesson of the module, one particular student steered us onto the debate about trans rights. My heart was in my mouth and I was prepared to have to intervene, but what I was particularly heartened to see was a healthy, reasoned and respectful discussion. In particular, it was interesting to see the following points being made by students themselves, all of which were sympathetic to the struggles of trans individuals, but still concluded:

• most people in a civilised society would support that how people choose to live is up to them, but certain rights cannot come at the expense of others' rights.
• sometimes there are very good reasons for separating men and women based on their sex.
• we aren't doing women favours if we do not acknowledge the biological advantages men have, especially in sport and in issues of women's safety.
• some of the trans debate is really unscientific (this came from a bold student who fortunately is very well respected amongst their peers!)

I was really surprised by this as I know from experience in the classroom and from lurking on here that some teenagers find it difficult to voice these views amongst their peers. I tried to make sure I simply facilitated discussion and didn't impose my views on them, but it did make me wonder if the tide could be turning...

I hope there are no follow-up complaints! However, I just wanted to share this as I was interested, and pleased, to see that they felt at the time they could express those views in the classroom.

My neighbours' children (10 and nearly 13) aren't interested. They think gender woo is yesterday's news, and what teachers say rather than anything to do with their early adolescent peer culture.

At first he starting blathering on about 'management' but she asked what the policy was behind it so he started talking about non-binary/twaw shite and that it was what people expected. She told him it was rubbish and her and her friends didn't want to get undressed with men and, in a protest - returned her basket of clothes to him.

Well done to your DD!

He then told her that 'he was sorry and that actually, not a lot of customers liked or wanted the setup but there was nothing he could do'.

God I wish. Can't even have a discussion with DD 16. No idea what the rest of them think because she's so loud on the subject

My eldest DD (15) came home from school the other day and said: guess what, Jane (I have made up this name) now wants to be called James (ditto). But she can’t be James, mum, cos that’s a boy’s name and she’s a girl - I have seen her boobs in the PE changing room!

Yes, my DC get it. Totally.

DD, 16, challenged (pointlessly really) the manager of Primark on Saturday. She wanted to know why they had buckled under the weight-of-wokeness and made their dressing rooms mixed.

At first he starting blathering on about 'management' but she asked what the policy was behind it so he started talking about non-binary/twaw shite and that it was what people expected. She told him it was rubbish and her and her friends didn't want to get undressed with men and, in a protest - returned her basket of clothes to him. He then told her that 'he was sorry and that actually, not a lot of customers liked or wanted the setup but there was nothing he could do'.

DD then re selected everything she'd had in her basket and asked me to pay so noone would see that she wasn't actually making a stand

@FrauleinSchweiger @ChristinaXYZ I have two teenage relatives who have both, separately, moved from schools in working class areas to schools in middle class areas and encountered teenagers who identify as trans/non-binary for the first time, and in both schools the trans/non binaries are, they say, acting like bullies and using things like accidental 'wrong pronouns' (this at a single sex school!) as a means to get them into trouble. It all sounds very Heathers, 2021 style.

My 12 year old saw this from very early when she questioned why there was a boy in Goodnight Stories for Rebel Girls - she said that it was weird to include them as no girl can ever be like them and that they should be in Goodnight Stories for Rebel Boys.

I do baulk at the "inspiring" messages that tell youngsters 'you can be anything you want to be...'

No. you can't. You can only be what you truly are. And realising your potential grows from that self-knowledge.

Dd (11) is very sensible about all. To quote her "a stallion can't become a mare even if it wants to".

I really hope the tide is turning among teens. My 15 and 13 year old girls have completely fallen for all the gender rubbish and eldest claims to be male now. Younger one has several friends who have adopted other names, go by 'they/them.' Older one has a girlfriend who is now apparently they/them as well. And yet if I suggest it's socially contagious she would be outraged and angry.

Really hope that my teens come to see this for the nonsense it is.

Meanwhile the increasingly widespread female experience of having to clear male piss off the newly unisex toilets at school or college before being able to use them (and/or feeling forced to avoid such toilets completely) is definitely doing the work of conveying that biological sex is real and single sex spaces are important, among young people I know.

I really hope that this is a zeitgeisty generational form of socially facilitated, externally pressured self- harm that will pass. I hope that even when in future this phenomenon is seen as anachronistic and very hard to understand (because you would have to have lived in the social context pressure-cooker that brought it about, to really ‘get’ why it took off as something anyone would identify with and act upon) that proper professional decently-funded NHS emotional and medical support will be built in for the people that have been harmed by all this.
It’s plain that for some of them it could be a lifetime’s work to reconcile themselves to the impact this movement could have had on themselves emotionally and physically, and impacts for their families and their relationships.

A huge amount of teachers, esp primary, live in a bubble of school and then unwinding when they can, not engaging in any political stuff, don't read papers etc. If they do it's the guardian. Many full timers in primary are millennial women, they don't join unions, don't strike, senior leadership teams can now be anyone under 35 or 30 in some places.

I know you acknowledged the stereotype but even taking out the fact that we are a pretty unionised staff, with under 35 GC members of SLT (eg: me) included, our most non-GC colleagues are about 35-50. Sometimes they are part time women but more often the most non-GC are male. I have wondered if it is something to do with how in our school, more girls are identifying as male, and so right now there are few implications. Our students are kind and largely compliant, and so will use any new name without question; they enjoy campaigning for social issues; and the trans boys will use the couple of private, single toilets around the school and change in separate areas of the school. Therefore for your average teacher, it doesn't appear to be much of an issue.

For those reasons, our school has been able to hold off on the toilets issue, but I wonder if we're not going to be able to do so much longer and I am very prepared to be vocal about it when we have to, especially now we have more (older) boys identifying as female.

So it's heartening to read that many young people are not buying into this. It's a shame that looking at this forum it seems to be boys that are more GC, as girls need to be comfortable vocalising their criticism, but it's a real start and, as I said in my previous post, shows the vocal cries of the "Miss, you can't say that there's two sexes, that's discrimination!" aren't representative.

I also think we might reach a tipping point. Say one child in a class of 30 comes out as trans, their friends might be accepting. When it's 8 or 10 the rest of them sense a trend and realise it's getting a bit ridiculous

Dd (19) is very accepting of twaw, non binary etc

She worked in a summer holiday club for a few weeks and told me the first day that there were 3/4 non binary teens in her group

About two weeks later she came home a bit angry because another child had ‘come out’ as non binary and dd felt she was making it up for attention

I did try and explain that

A) the child just might not have realised they were non binary til they’d met other non binary children

B) everyone is non binary so its just a matter of who says it first, the first few will be believed but the last ones wont

C) maybe it just doesn’t exist full stop

But she disagreed completely, some of those children are non binary and the others arent…She’s not quite there…but she’s so close

DD14 goes to a school that isn't very woke. Pupils are very keen on social justice, the environment etc, but this issue hasn't gained much traction.
She is experiencing, and understanding, that not all of her teachers are right about everything though which is shifting her view over authority. One particular teacher infuriates her, he describes himself as a feminist (!) but then is probably the worst offender amongst her teachers for unconscious bias. Calls all the girls 'sweetheart' and not the boys, calls the boys up first to present work and generally rewards pushy behaviour, etc..
I think the double whammy for GC kids will be coming up against teachers who have bought into this and fail to see they should be more neutral.

My 14 year old says they are told they are discriminatory if they try and question the trans agenda at school PSHE lessons.

It was like the teachers were driving the woke bus and not listening to the kids,

I'm a teacher and related to other teachers so can say this

A huge amount of teachers, esp primary, live in a bubble of school and then unwinding when they can, not engaging in any political stuff, don't read papers etc. If they do it's the guardian. Many full timers in primary are millennial women, they don't join unions, don't strike, senior leadership teams can now be anyone under 35 or 30 in some places. Loads of older teachers I know retired early or left the profession in the last few years.

I'm being horribly stereotypical and equally know a fair few who aren't at all this of course. I have a bunch of colleagues over 40, part time as have kids, and their ability to be critical thinkers and sensible is fantastic; it's just that we are all completely squashed by juggling paperwork and stress and young kids or teens.

(I'm liberally spraying magnesium spray in anticipation of the next un critically thought up, paper work inducing pointless Ofsted pleasing pile of crap to be presented to us at work next week. Gender woo is another example of really stupid stuff happening in many schools right now.)

That's both depressing and funny KittenKong
Good to hear about so many of the young eye rolling at the extremes of this. The tragedy is for those teenagers who get so totally enmeshed in it that they head for drugs and surgery before they've matured.

My son is 24 and uni educated and thinks it's a massive joke. So do his friends, apparently. My son is the kind of kid that never believed in Santa even though we used to do the whole christmas thing.

Oh and they are definitely sceptical about the bathroom issue, mostly because of a genuinely disturbed individual in their school who had previously self-described as both a necrophiliac and an incel who then decided he was a girl. The school accommodated ofc as schools have to but all of the kids could see that it was wrong. It was like the teachers were driving the woke bus and not listening to the kids, while all the time the kids felt awkward for not being more progressive. Very odd situation really.