Megan Murphy is on Joe Rogan

I mean it's a fascinating topic.

I have no strong views on this vaccine.

When it comes to telling communities that vaccine for something super horrible are a conspiracy to make everyone infertile etc. I mean why? What is it about vaccines that makes people so determined to stop them/ and so many hear and think right let's not.

And with medical decision making in general. Ordinary people just don't have the info. Docs advice is generally followed

What is it about vaccines that freak people out so much? You don't get this with antibiotics or anaesthetic do you.

Yeeesss but complex. Very complex.

The impact of missionary types going to various communities and talking bollocks has led to loads of unnecessary deaths.

Smallpox was so so nearly eradicated.

Anti vaxx types often seem very selective in which ones they think are dangerous etc...

I would also say that when it comes to anti vaxx focusing on individuals for me is beside the point.

Why does anti vaxx exist?
Why do loads of people think yep vaccines no good.
Who is pushing it and why?
Why is prevention suspicious but cure later not?

So many questions...

Sorry I've skipped vaccine stuff not interested.

The 'rights' to some types of autonomy I can think of are... Self serving and dodgy. Generally around men arguing for things to do with sex.

Anyway.

'Infringements on people's rights to medical autonomy have to meet certain standards, one being that they address a serious problem, and another being that the measure is actually likely to work, among others.'

USA - abortion? I mean that's fucked in loads of States autonomy-wise.

That's an argument that doesn't really stack up in a public health system. It's like the whole American right to bear arms thing. It doesn't really stack up in a civilised society. Insisting that your own choices have no impact on wider society is idiotic.

Civil liberties organisations and lawyers would disagree with you. Infringements on people's rights to medical autonomy have to meet certain standards, one being that they address a serious problem, and another being that the measure is actually likely to work, among others.

If vaccine mandates don't really have much effect than they are legally and ethically very questionable. I think Murphy may give less weight than she should to their ability to protect others, but she is right that they seem much less effective that way than had been hoped, and it's not clear that mandates are likely to be effective.

Sometimes we really need to use models like that to describe real things, but it's important to be very disciplined with it.

www.feministcurrent.com/2021/07/02/nine/

This was an interesting read. I remember one of the mothers in Abigail Shriver’s book had similar sentiments regarding this issue shifting her views completely - she no longer believed in Republican vs Democrat, or that the Democrats were “better” - she couldn’t believe the people who were going along with this and that human rights lawyers would be campaigning for men to be in women’s prisons.

Reading more.

Whether sex matters/ exists even is not a party political issue. It's an issue for women and girls across the board.

Yet it's constantly pulled back to Tory/ labour.

Why? The lens of left/ right esp with party political specifics is beside the point.

I mean yes. Right- one man property left- all men property. And yes. Traditional role Vs free it all up.

BUT. that's too simplistic. And both refer back to men.

What men want us to be/ behave like.

We exist outside of that and have our own views. We're stuck in the patriarchal system with this.

Women of any and all politics know what men can be like. That sex matters. Know about periods and childbirth and how we are looked at and treated. Women know.

That's what matters to me I think.

Not read all but first few posts made me wonder.

With politics for me. I mean yes of course parents area peers experiences etc have impact.

I've had certain really strong fundamentals since I was pretty little though. And they are stronger/ different flavour/ different to certainly many around me at school etc.

These things feel instinctive. Just. Part of who I am iyswim.

Including-

Feminist (2nd wave meets best but really I just think what I think more or less. I read and have read but a lot is just sort of just how I feel)
Class view rather than individual
Tax and help rather than low tax and two feet (I'm assuming unequal society etc not utopia!)

I was just wondering how others feel?

Just MM in OP apparently going from one end to the other.

I have also googled her now. She’s an unvaccinated pregnant woman - big black mark, AND She works (worked) in a care home. Huge black mark. While she’s not sure about the transmission impact it’s 1. Really obviously not zero impact and 2. She’s not vaccinated so doing NOTHING to lower that impact, and worked in a care home which are full of vulnerable people. She might not be a rabid antivaxxer (& I did assume that from clymenes statements rather than do my own research) but she’s more than enough ‘my impact on others is irrelevant’ if she’d do that. We’ve all seen the virus rip through care homes and I think stepping through the door while unvaccinated is unconscionable.

I watched it at the time though I'm not sure if I saw it all. I don't think Meghan Murphy is someone who's easy to pigeon hole. She reminded me of Posie Parker in some ways: shoots from the hip, very anti authoritarian and pro free speech (hardly surprising given her Twitter experiences), scathing about the state of left wing politics in the way that only someone who used to be on the left can be, and unapologetic about prioritising women's rights. As I remember, she challenged Rogan over pornography and prostitution while also saying she would never tell women what they should or shouldn't do. She did say she'd changed some of her views and had clashed with some feminists as a result. It was an interesting discussion and yes some of it resonated and I imagine would do for a lot of posters. I don't remember anything about vaccines.

I really like Mary Harringtons work.

It's a new perspective, to me, anyway. Lots to think about.

She considers a mix of things. One the one hand she traces the feminist movement along materialist lines- its the conditions of life that drive change. Like the much maligned Phyliss Shaffleys remark that the washing machine helped women more than the feminist movement did.
Otoh, she is strong on the emotional and psychological aspects of sex and motherhood. Nothing new to the regulars here but that's the huge missing piece in mainstream Only Gestators culture.

I think she's on here as well, so hi Mary!

Did a bit of googling - Murphy isn't against the vaccine. She thinks there is a lack of honestly about how well it works to prevent transmission, and that mainly it protects the person who is vaccinated. And therefore mandates aren't really justified.

She ties this to her pro-choice views in terms of bodily autonomy.

It's one thing to recognize misogynist TRA lefties for being full of shit. It's another to say you'd vote for Trump.

Leftists turning their concern for the marginalized into a new way of beating up women is crap, but that doesn't make the Cheeto-topped Dogpile any less crap.

Women are homeless. Acknowledge that. Don't go running into the opposite trap.

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]It reminds me a bit of Mary Harrington's essay this week,

Is that Unherd , Lobster ?

unherd.com/2021/11/the-sexual-revolution-killed-feminism/[/quote]
Yes, that's the one.

Now they all seem to be labeled anti-vaxxers.

It's the conflation thing
I disagree with self ID - You want trans people dead!
I disagree with vaccine mandates - You're an anti vaxxer!!

There's examples all over

Is Meghan Murphy anti-vaccine, isn't she just opposed to vaccine mandates/passports? I know this is wildly off-topic for this board but I have always had a lot of respect for MM, although I haven't really followed her too closely this past year, and I would be somewhat dismayed if she really is opposed to vaccination in and of itself?

It reminds me a bit of Mary Harrington's essay this week,

Is that Unherd , Lobster ?

unherd.com/2021/11/the-sexual-revolution-killed-feminism/

I do struggle to take on board anything a rabid antivaxxer says, as they are clearly anti logic so I don’t feel at all better that they agree with me about one thing.

Triggernometry interview called "why did labour loose the GE?" With Matthew Goodwin is exactly about this.

My politics haven't changed, but I am far less authoritarian and more easy going than I used to be! Five years ago (well, maybe more than five years ago, now) I was very much TWAW and would get unreasonably (to my current way of thinking) offended/upset by discourse/jokes/etc., that disagreed with my opinions. Now I think: intent matters; nuance matters; speech is not violence; you can laugh at pretty much anything; it is better to connect with people on issues you agree on rather than cut yourself off from them based on what you disagree on. Identity politics went badly wrong.