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Original poster

"No debate" - a TV producer's perspective

44 replies

NecessaryScene · 17/08/2021 08:31

In 2018, Channel 4 aired a documentary called Trans Kids: It's Time to Talk, hosted by Stella O'Malley (who now co-hosts the Gender: A Wider Lens podcast).

This was one of the first serious looks at the issue of childhood transition on mainstream TV, and was filmed around the time of the GRA reform battle.

For its producer, Olly Lambert, an experienced TV documentary maker, but new to this particular "debate", it was an eye-opening experience to try to deal with the pro-gender side.

Here's Posie Parker's description:

In 2018 Venice Allan and I, with the fabulous support of Julie Burchill, organised a talk called “Woke News”. We wanted to explore the silencing and policing of journalists and filmmakers concerning trans issues. One of the panellists was the fantastic documentary filmmaker, Olly Lambert. He described his experience of making the groundbreaking documentary “Trans kids - its time to talk”. His account is as horrifying as hilarious.

I previously linked to this talk over on the Maya-on-Radio-5-Live thread, but a few people thought it was worth its own thread.

At some point this stonewalling of discussion needs to become the story.

Original documentary on Channel 4
Archive copy of documentary

OP posts:
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MaudTheInvincible · 22/08/2021 19:37

Just followed Kate Smurthwaite on twitter on the basis of this thread and that NS link.

Original poster
NecessaryScene · 21/08/2021 17:55

I guess that depends on whether you class KS or the student body as the radical ones.

The "radical" in "radical feminist" does not mean "extreme". It's a specific branch of feminism. If you just meant "extreme", then we were talking at cross-purposes.

From the policies spoken about in that article, it's clear that the students doing the cancelling were not radical feminists, they were liberal feminists, objecting to what they perceived as KS's radfem views - although she seemed to issue a partial denial.

I'm also not sure anything there was really extreme - apart from the cancelling itself.

It's bizarre that liberal groups such as these demand diversity in everything but opinion.

Indeed. They're certainly not liberal.

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CBUK22 · 21/08/2021 17:44

@NecessaryScene I guess that depends on whether you class KS or the student body as the radical ones. I'd say both positions are fairly far from the generally well meaning position of most who identify as feminist.

It's bizarre that liberal groups such as these demand diversity in everything but opinion.

JustcameoutGC · 21/08/2021 17:27

Really interesting. I started a thread on this board about Jessica Alves and the womb implant. It attracted one particularly bloody minded TRA. A similar thread is now in AIBU, but the TRAs as yet are nowhere to be seen. Its almost like they don't want to repeat their arguments out in the open. Hmmmmm.

Original poster
NecessaryScene · 21/08/2021 16:43

PS "Feminists" is not sufficient - you said "radical feminists".

I'm sure those calling themselves liberal feminists will happily cancel people, cos their arguments are of a similar quality and substance to TRAs.

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Original poster
NecessaryScene · 21/08/2021 16:41

Off the top of my head, the dreadful Kate Smurthwaite was cancelled by feminists at Goldsmiths for her views on prostitution.

Right, I looked that one up, and seems that she held the radical feminist position and was cancelled on that basis.

We're looking for radical feminists doing the cancelling to support your thesis.

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CBUK22 · 21/08/2021 16:38

@NecessaryScene - University is the spiritual home of Cancel Culture, you'll struggle to find anyone running a student union who doesn't identify as a feminist.

Off the top of my head, the dreadful Kate Smurthwaite was cancelled by feminists at Goldsmiths for her views on prostitution.

MonsignorMirth · 21/08/2021 16:29

@PamDenick

I don’t describe myself as a radical feminist. If you met me ‘radical’ would probably not be on your words to describe me. But I am grateful that some women are and that they are willing to debate important issues.
Have a Google of radical feminism - it probably doesn't quite mean what you think! (Meant non-patronisingly - not that long ago I didn't know and found it interesting)
Original poster
NecessaryScene · 21/08/2021 15:12

radical feminists and the far left

Far left, sure, there's been lots of this no-platform loopery from nutters calling themselves "left".

But "radical feminists"? I can't think of any. Give me an example.

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BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 15:08

well they should call Julie Bindel then @CBUK22

she's always up for a good chin wag with a nutter

CBUK22 · 21/08/2021 15:06

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg Universities, Twitter, TV debates etc would all tend to disagree with you when it comes to radical feminists and the far left.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 14:47

@PamDenick

Yes. We agree. TRAs aren’t willing to engage in any meaningful debate.

As exposed by Ollie.

yes indeed

and feminists are generally very happy to debate. not all of them cos they're not the borg

but if you want to find an influential feminist to speak to a C4 documentary, it would be very, very easy

inmyslippers · 21/08/2021 14:43

Place marking to watch later

PamDenick · 21/08/2021 14:41

Yes. We agree. TRAs aren’t willing to engage in any meaningful debate.

As exposed by Ollie.

CBUK22 · 21/08/2021 14:39

@PamDenick

I don’t describe myself as a radical feminist. If you met me ‘radical’ would probably not be on your words to describe me. But I am grateful that some women are and that they are willing to debate important issues.
This issue is when a debate becomes an ideology that cannot be challenged as trans rights have.
PamDenick · 21/08/2021 14:36

I don’t describe myself as a radical feminist.
If you met me ‘radical’ would probably not be on your words to describe me.
But I am grateful that some women are and that they are willing to debate important issues.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 21/08/2021 14:04

aye right

Julie Bindel has shared a platform with Jane Fae on a number of occasions, and debated MRAs like Milo Yiannopoulos

Germaine Greer debated with Norman Mailer (town bloody hall).

Feminists have a long and proud history of showing up and debating

CBUK22 · 21/08/2021 13:46

It seems ironic watching this video and seeing the condemnation here because these very tactics of cancel culture were lifted directly from the world of radical feminism.

AntiSocialDistancer · 20/08/2021 20:05

.

JustcameoutGC · 20/08/2021 19:36

That was so so illuminating. Coordinated stonewalling. I would love to have a pint with him. He makes a living from telling stories and he knows there is a dynamite story there. I bet he is questioning why he feels totally comfortable wading into the middle Eastern conflict, but he is very unlikely to go near this again. More toxic than Gaza. Wowsers.

HDDD · 20/08/2021 17:50

Really interesting. I recall Helen Joyce saying the same when she first tried to write an article and this is what led her to write her book.

Very much need this - "At some point this stonewalling of discussion needs to become the story."

WarriorN · 20/08/2021 07:35

@oldwomanwhoruns

And this is such a good video for showing to other people - the 'sitting on the fence' people. Because it's a MAN speaking, an articulate, authoritative man, not one of us hormonal squeaky women. I so wish that he had made the film about the making of the film...

Unfortunately this is exactly what I thought as I watched.

I do wish he wasn't quite so sneering though in this film. A video of him explaining without any comedic intonation would be more useful. Ears close at any of this.

WarriorN · 20/08/2021 07:33

Thanks for this, watched Stella's film and I remember her apologising for not being able to get anyone on "the other side" on a few times. Both are great.

BoreOfWhabylon · 19/08/2021 22:54

@PermanentTemporary

It was a fascinating listen. I sometimes felt he was positioning himself a little too much as the centrist voice of reason. My spidey senses would have tingled a bit if I'd been invited to be interviewed from the pro-youth-affirmation side.

It was 2 or 3 years ago? I wonder whether he now feels the increasing stridency of the discussions on this (and I say this as a reasonably strident GC person) would push him a bit in the other direction. I've been sneered at by too many people in this to be sure that people with a particular concept of themselves will stick with their original views.

I think Olly's firmly on the side of Adult Human Females, judging by his tweets mobile.twitter.com/ollylambert?lang=en
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 19/08/2021 21:51

that's a good watch

he's obviously a person who has seen a lot of human behaviour, and he had the measure of helen webberley didn't he?

a woman who has sterilised a 13 year old child

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