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Original poster

Afghan women forced to wear burqa

261 replies

GoodieMoomin · 15/08/2021 18:03

As the taliban continues to gain ground, the forward looking young women of Afghanistan are having to prepare for some major changes.

I cannot imagine how these women are feeling right now, watching their freedoms slip through their fingers. Honestly, I could cry.

^"My mother says we should buy a burqa. My parents are afraid of the Taliban. My mother thinks that one of the ways she can protect her daughters is to make them wear the burqa,” she says.

“But we have no burqa in our home, and I have no intention of getting one. I don’t want to hide behind a curtain-like cloth. If I wear the burqa, it means that I have accepted the Taliban’s government. I have given them the right to control me. Wearing a chador is the beginning of my sentence as a prisoner in my house. I’m afraid of losing the accomplishments I fought for so hard.”^

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/aug/15/afghan-womens-defiance-and-despair-i-never-thought-id-have-to-wear-a-burqa-my-identity-will-be-lost

OP posts:
Tibtom · 16/08/2021 12:29

@Beowulfa

Bluntly, there aren't enough non-Taliban men in Afghanistan to fight against their ideology. There aren't enough who would actually like some semblance of democracy or to see their daughters educated and independent. I wonder if push came to shove how many men here would actually physically fight for our rights?
They are all fleeing the country. It you look at images of the chaos at the airport they are all men.
NonnyMouse1337 · 16/08/2021 12:22

Thanks everyone. I cannot describe without getting banned how deeply I despise gender identity ideology / queer theory and those who support it. I spent the first half of my life in the Middle East and India. These 'professional / intersectional / queer feminist' types are not fit to clean the feet of the women in so many countries who live with the realities of oppression. They wouldn't last a day with the hardships I've known women there face. spits

RoseisMadder · 16/08/2021 12:19

@NonnyMouse1337 your words brought me to tears (for the second time this morning) I’m going to save them on my phone.
I hate this world today. I searched for anything we can do and nothing. Only thing I found was an article from 2 weeks ago and so much has happened since, any kind of aid we send will only go to the Taliban.
What’s more upsetting is how few people care. I want to go and rescue those women and girls, I feel so useless

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 16/08/2021 12:00

Wow NonnyMouse1337 Star that's too good a post to be lost on a thread here.
deep in their hearts they know they would never willingly trade places with the women of Afghanistan, because all the queer theory in the world won't save them from the slaughterhouse. Sad

CuriousaboutSamphire · 16/08/2021 11:40

@Imnobody4

The Taliban are promising an 'inclusive government'. It's interesting to see them adopting the language of western liberalism. This really goes to the heart of post modernism doesn't it, the power of language to name things?
That struck fear into my heart this morning.

I have heard a lot over the last couple of days, from women who came here 20 years ago, about women friends and family in Kabul etc, their fears, what they have already experienced... and hearing the claim of 'inclusive government' scared the shit out of me.

It wil be only too easy for any governemnt to take that at face value. Post covid, with all that every country already has going in on, how much of a relief would it be to be able to believe that, quote it, repeat it, and to open up a long distance dialogue based on it?

Meanwhile every women screams to be heard...

RedDogsBeg · 16/08/2021 11:39

@NonnyMouse1337

My response to a question on another thread.

looking an Afgani woman in the eyes, what connects their suffering with our struggles here?

The embodied reality of womanhood that transcends time, distance and cultures. She is me and I am her. It is a visceral bond that no male can ever identify into and no female can ever identify out of.

It is only an accident of fate that I live in the UK. I am one of the rare winners in the grotesque lottery of life.

Life for women in the UK has been shaped by its own cultural and religious heritage. Its relatively unique and rare historical trajectory enabled British women to organise and win incredible gains for their daughters in a way that women from so many other countries can only dream of doing.

The plight of Afghani women is a stark reminder of the iron fist of oppression that men can wield against women on the basis of our sex. It is an uncomfortable truth that without the majority of men on our side, women truly are at the mercy of the vicious whims and savage violence of men.

My heart breaks for the women of Afghanistan - so many of them had a taste of freedom, opportunity and being a person in their own right, and now it has evaporated almost overnight. I know what is happening to them could happen to me too, if circumstances enabled it. The incel attack in Plymouth reveals the deep hatred and desires of subjugation that some men harbour for women.

Far too many women in the UK take their precious freedoms for granted. Yes, there's much that can be better, but it's important to realise just how rare it is to live in a time and place where women have so many rights and protections within a stable, wealthy society and where most men view us as worthy of full personhood.

Some women are so intoxicated by these freedoms - freedoms they themselves did not win - that they think it's great fun to indulge in all kinds of outlandish luxury beliefs, such as biological sex being a social construct, women are not oppressed on the basis of sex, and that being a woman is nothing but a feeling and set of sexist stereotypes. They have feasted at the table of liberty for so long that they think they can ignore reality by chanting mantras and 'queering' words. Bloated by their gluttony, they cheer the erosion of the same rights and protections that enabled their arrogance and ignorance. Their fingers and mouths greasy with the remnants of the fruits of labour of the women that came before them, they sneer at those who understand the precarious nature of our rights and personhood and seek to protect it. They might belch out insults and smears in between mouthfuls, but deep in their hearts they know they would never willingly trade places with the women of Afghanistan, because all the queer theory in the world won't save them from the slaughterhouse.

One of the best posts I've ever read, NonnyMouse, perfect.

Whilst women and girls in Afghanistan are facing the imposition of brutal and unrelenting oppression on the basis of their sex, TRAs and their supine cheerleaders here in the West are whinging about pronouns and weeping over using the term woman to only describe an adult human female, contemptible each and every one of them.

Ozanj · 16/08/2021 11:32

@WarriorN

I can't find it now but there was a terrifying piece about women who've become divorced in Afghanistan.

Under recent rules they could gain employment and rent a house etc. In tbe past they had to have a male do these things for them.

They have been shunned by family and many have lost family.

They will need a male to allow them to do many of these things now and fear for their lives.

The anti-divorce culture of Afghanistan is a hangover of it’s Hindu / Pathan past and goes against Islam / Qu’ran. Even the Burkha is a Hindu tradition. The dancing boy culture is even more ancient and again anti-Islam.

The problem with Afghanistani Islam has always been that the imams there don’t understand or know how to apply the Qu’ran. And the modern day Taliban hate Saudis so much they won’t allow any religious guidance (but are willing to buy weapons from them or sell them drugs). It’s a ridiculous situation that the Islamic world isn’t doing anything about this.

Beowulfa · 16/08/2021 11:21

Bluntly, there aren't enough non-Taliban men in Afghanistan to fight against their ideology. There aren't enough who would actually like some semblance of democracy or to see their daughters educated and independent. I wonder if push came to shove how many men here would actually physically fight for our rights?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/08/2021 11:16

Some women are so intoxicated by these freedoms - freedoms they themselves did not win - that they think it's great fun to indulge in all kinds of outlandish luxury beliefs, such as biological sex being a social construct, women are not oppressed on the basis of sex, and that being a woman is nothing but a feeling and set of sexist stereotypes. They have feasted at the table of liberty for so long that they think they can ignore reality by chanting mantras and 'queering' words. Bloated by their gluttony, they cheer the erosion of the same rights and protections that enabled their arrogance and ignorance. Their fingers and mouths greasy with the remnants of the fruits of labour of the women that came before them, they sneer at those who understand the precarious nature of our rights and personhood and seek to protect it. They might belch out insults and smears in between mouthfuls, but deep in their hearts they know they would never willingly trade places with the women of Afghanistan, because all the queer theory in the world won't save them from the slaughterhouse.

Fabulous post, Nonnymouse

catzwhiskas · 16/08/2021 11:14

Great post Nonnymouse

NonnyMouse1337 · 16/08/2021 11:10

My response to a question on another thread.

looking an Afgani woman in the eyes, what connects their suffering with our struggles here?

The embodied reality of womanhood that transcends time, distance and cultures. She is me and I am her. It is a visceral bond that no male can ever identify into and no female can ever identify out of.

It is only an accident of fate that I live in the UK. I am one of the rare winners in the grotesque lottery of life.

Life for women in the UK has been shaped by its own cultural and religious heritage. Its relatively unique and rare historical trajectory enabled British women to organise and win incredible gains for their daughters in a way that women from so many other countries can only dream of doing.

The plight of Afghani women is a stark reminder of the iron fist of oppression that men can wield against women on the basis of our sex. It is an uncomfortable truth that without the majority of men on our side, women truly are at the mercy of the vicious whims and savage violence of men.

My heart breaks for the women of Afghanistan - so many of them had a taste of freedom, opportunity and being a person in their own right, and now it has evaporated almost overnight. I know what is happening to them could happen to me too, if circumstances enabled it. The incel attack in Plymouth reveals the deep hatred and desires of subjugation that some men harbour for women.

Far too many women in the UK take their precious freedoms for granted. Yes, there's much that can be better, but it's important to realise just how rare it is to live in a time and place where women have so many rights and protections within a stable, wealthy society and where most men view us as worthy of full personhood.

Some women are so intoxicated by these freedoms - freedoms they themselves did not win - that they think it's great fun to indulge in all kinds of outlandish luxury beliefs, such as biological sex being a social construct, women are not oppressed on the basis of sex, and that being a woman is nothing but a feeling and set of sexist stereotypes. They have feasted at the table of liberty for so long that they think they can ignore reality by chanting mantras and 'queering' words. Bloated by their gluttony, they cheer the erosion of the same rights and protections that enabled their arrogance and ignorance. Their fingers and mouths greasy with the remnants of the fruits of labour of the women that came before them, they sneer at those who understand the precarious nature of our rights and personhood and seek to protect it. They might belch out insults and smears in between mouthfuls, but deep in their hearts they know they would never willingly trade places with the women of Afghanistan, because all the queer theory in the world won't save them from the slaughterhouse.

Lessthanaballpark · 16/08/2021 11:02

@Couchbettato

Me too. I’m not ashamed to say I’ve cried today. I think of those young women and the relative freedom that they’ve enjoyed over the past 20 years. Kind intelligent women who have grabbed the opportunity of education, who have taught their daughters they can dare to dream of a happy future. All that taken away by a bunch of violent arrogant tossers who look to a non existent God to justify their enormous sense of entitlement.

It makes me angry and sad in equal measures.

Couchbettato · 16/08/2021 10:44

I'm sat on the end of my bed, shaking.

This is one of those situations where we are completely powerless and I can't stop my imagination running and thinking of what's going to happen to these girls and women.

My heart feels crushed.

Lessthanaballpark · 16/08/2021 10:39

@mangoontoast please come back and enlighten us on how gender ideology would help the women of Afghanistan

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 16/08/2021 10:10

However, we're always told that we're just a bunch of nasty old bigots on this board, so I'm open to hearing the case for gender ideology as being beneficial to the women of Afghanistan

Its very good keeping an open mind

Having said that I doubt that poster will be back, ask any of these types of posters a question they can’t answer and they just disappear (or they stay and go on and on about ‘educating yourself’ and refuse to answer any questions)

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2021 09:24

The Taliban are promising an 'inclusive government'. It's interesting to see them adopting the language of western liberalism. This really goes to the heart of post modernism doesn't it, the power of language to name things?

EdgeOfACoin · 16/08/2021 09:22

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I confess that I cannot see how gender ideology would do anything to help women and girls, but I am open to hearing a different perspective. To being educated, if you will

There would be no women in the whole of Afghanistan if it were possible to opt out

Well, that's my belief, Rufus.

However, we're always told that we're just a bunch of nasty old bigots on this board, so I'm open to hearing the case for gender ideology as being beneficial to the women of Afghanistan.

Helleofabore · 16/08/2021 09:19

Didn’t one poster on page two mention taking the red pill?

Surely they must have meant it as a alternative means to get out of to sex based oppression otherwise why mention it at all?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 16/08/2021 09:18

I confess that I cannot see how gender ideology would do anything to help women and girls, but I am open to hearing a different perspective. To being educated, if you will

There would be no women in the whole of Afghanistan if it were possible to opt out

EdgeOfACoin · 16/08/2021 09:11

Sounds like gender identity ideology is a good thing then...

@mangoontoast, I am very interested in your take on this.

What steps can women in Afghanistan take to identify out of their oppression, under the ideology of gender identity?

How do you see 'woman' (as a gender identity) being distinct from 'woman' (as a factual term for an adult human female)? Do you believe that women in the West have historically faced problems such as not being allowed to vote, not being entitled to a mortgage without their husband's signature and being forced to give up their jobs upon marriage due to the fact that they are biologically female or because they have a 'woman' gender identity?

Can all adult human females opt out of the issues identified in the book Invisible Women by adopting Non-binary or 'man' gender identities? How does a 'non-binary' or 'man' gender identity differ from a 'woman' gender identity?

Do you think it is acceptable for women to have to wear the burkha and be denied an education in Afghanistan as long as they have a 'woman' gender identity? However, if a biological female has a 'man' or 'non-binary' gender identity then they should be allowed to access masculine clothing and an education? You say that gender ideology is a good thing, after all.

I am very interested in your thoughts on these points, since you feel the women and girls (biological females?) in Afghanistan would benefit from the introduction of gender ideology.

I confess that I cannot see how gender ideology would do anything to help women and girls, but I am open to hearing a different perspective. To being educated, if you will.

Helleofabore · 16/08/2021 09:08

goodiemoomin
Women cannot opt out of oppression

mangoontoast
Sounds like gender identity ideology is a good thing then.

Oh dear. Did you say the quiet bit out loud mangoon?

At least you leave us in no doubt.

LazyViper · 16/08/2021 09:04

By the way, not misgendering Izzard there. He’s on record saying both he and she pronouns are fine with him.

LazyViper · 16/08/2021 09:02

It’s absolutely valid to discuss this with reference to Western gender ideology, because it’s searingly clear that none of the women in Afghanistan are identifying into their oppression, and nor can they identify out of it.

Pop Eddie Izzard into Kabul and see if he decides he’s in ‘girl mode’ that day. Guessing not.

Femaleness is the root of these women’s oppression, not gender identity. It puts the 21st century identity politics farce into stark relief.

If anyone can point me in the direction of a practical way to help women in Afghanistan, that would be great. Feeling useless and horrified right now.

Lessthanaballpark · 16/08/2021 08:41

God that’s terrifying. I wish there were something we could do to help these women.

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