Afghan women forced to wear burqa

Really - is 'you're all tranphobic' the best you've got?

Yes, it looks like it.

@PumpkinSpiceWoman

The problem is you do not engage with the actual substance of discussion on these boards. You pop in from time to time, accusing everyone of transphobia and occasionally start threads along the same lines never bothering to return and respond to the substantive points made.

We have already had a poster on here saying that the women of Afghanistan would benefit from gender ideology. When challenged as to how they would benefit, the poster didn't return to explain.

Are you going to provide an explanation?

There have been some really passionate and articulate posts on this thread. When are you going to address any of the points made about how women are oppressed on the basis of their sex, not their gender identity? When are you going to provide the counter view to the statement 'gender ideology is a luxury belief'?

Really - is 'you're all tranphobic' the best you've got?

[quote Chaotica]@WinglessSonglessBird I agree that the dress should be a matter of choice, although I've always thought burqa is too extreme as it covers your face and eyes so no-one can even see your expressions. That does make it difficult to interact with others as an equal. (Apparently, women in Kabul used to carry patterned umbrellas so that they could be told apart.) Hijab on the other hand is just a way of covering up which should be acceptable if you want to do so.

Feminists who I've met from Iran and Pakistan have always stressed that the dress isn't the main problem, it's all the other inequalities.[/quote]
But still totally fucked up that women should be expected to "cover up" and be ashamed of our bodies or even our hair etc while men can do whatever they like? Why the hell do any women support this misogynistic nonsense??

In the West you are derided as a woman if you cover up. "look more grown up", means look more sexual, show more skin.

What an offensive and absurd comment. Women in "the West" dress however choosing to as individuals who are prople not property. I think yo"" find most do not choose to show any more "skin" than men. In fact far less, mostly.

So if the burqa is so great, why don't men want to wear it?

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Those poor women.

Obviously some muslim women probably hate the garbs, but some do feel safer in them, for legit reasons.

And what is that legit reason? Because men will stare and harass if they don’t.

That’s where the issue lies. Start with that.

@PumpkinSpiceWoman you constantly, constantly tell posters on here that we're transphobic for believing in the biological reality of sex. You're an unbelievable hypocrite with luxury beliefs. You live in a country where you can hold these beliefs. Women living in Afghanistan cannot identify out of their sex or the oppression they experience because of their sex.

I don't even know why I'm replying to you - you never, ever engage with the conversations here. Just plop and run.

Obviously with the rise of the Internet, it's much easier to find out the background of things but sometimes it's really difficult to know where to start!

@WinglessSonglessBird I agree that the dress should be a matter of choice, although I've always thought burqa is too extreme as it covers your face and eyes so no-one can even see your expressions. That does make it difficult to interact with others as an equal. (Apparently, women in Kabul used to carry patterned umbrellas so that they could be told apart.) Hijab on the other hand is just a way of covering up which should be acceptable if you want to do so.

Feminists who I've met from Iran and Pakistan have always stressed that the dress isn't the main problem, it's all the other inequalities.

Watching the wonderful Clarissa Ward on CNN, there has by all accounts been a run on burqas at the Kabul branch of Primark or its equivalent, and no wonder.

The PR-Trained New Taliban say women may choose to dress in a binbag, 'for their own security,' which if it means not getting a 7.62mm magazine emptied into your face, would seem prudent.

In Life, one always has a choice, but too often it is not a very nice one.

I'm mostly afraid for the women in the media/civil service who are having their doors painted red. Many say they are waiting to be killed.

@GoodieMoomin

One has to wonder how the taliban can tell which people must wear a burqa, and why those who don't want to don't just self-ID as male

I'd imagine most will attempt to flee or return to their natal sex.

also some people like their religious clothes for religious reasons. Think of Nuns' habits. The Muslim women just need autonomy and choice and I'm sure you'd see some keep some of their old practices cuz they legit like them and some discard them.

I might get flak for this, and kinda embarrassed to say:

First off, I do not think any woman should be forced to wear a burqa. And obviously there's the religious aspect to it. But I have read that some muslim women actually like them and prefer them. So they should be allowed to wear them, if they truly want to. I read one time that some of the muslim girls feel safer in burqas and related garb vs the skimpy sexualized Western clothes.

With that said, I honestly wouldn't mind wearing a burqa every time I left, for the reason of it feeling safer (obviously you can be attacked regardless of what you wear). But no men, no human, can even look at your body. I like that idea. The forcing it and the religious and abusive-misogynistic undertones and history to it, no, do not like that. But as pure ideological concept of hiding your body so nobody can see it...I honestly love that idea. I'm not gonna go around in a burqa cuz I'm not muslim and I'd feel I'd be being disrespectful...also cuz muslim people anyway get abuse cuz of their religion. But just in terms of clothing options, I'm not gonna lie, I like it and would do it if it became a fashion. Some of us feel better hiding and more empowered hiding our bodies. It shouldn't have to be that way, but til reality is safer for women...

Anyway, just putting that out there that some muslim women even if not forced, would want to wear these garbs. And when I read about how they don't understand the West's view of the burqas etc being oppressive cuz to them the West's idea of freedom is going around half naked all the time? Yeah, I do see the appeal for some women to WANT to wear them. I know Westerner's hate that idea, but -shrugs- one person's idea of empowerment and freedom is another's prison and oppression. Choice is the key word here.

In the West you are derided as a woman if you cover up. "look more grown up", means look more sexual, show more skin. Not everyone thinks that is freedom or empowering. No, you shouldn't HAVE to cover up to feel safe or ok out and about, but since male predators are everywhere, people have to do something.

Those poor muslim women need the freedom of choice and autonomy. Their clothes I don't think are the real issue. It's just a symptom. But, seriously, I bet I'm not the only one who wishes our society prized covering up almost totally as a "normal" thing. Obviously some muslim women probably hate the garbs, but some do feel safer in them, for legit reasons.

Not everything is an excuse to promote transphobia. Please have some respect.

You PumpkinSpiceWoman, TRAs, and anyone pushing gender ideology asking for respect is a fucking joke. Your behaviour and rhetoric is the polar opposite of respectful or worthy of any respect whatsoever.

I'm not particularly articulate or academic or intelligent but how thick do you have to be to not understand that what is happening in Afghanistan is exactly what we have been pointing out from the start of all this. As PP have said, women and girls are oppressed because of their sex. Our sex based protections can not be overruled by Gender Ideology because women and girls will lose those protections. It's never been about being anti Trans. It's always been about the importance of sex. Sex matters greatly and this truly horrendous situation is the horrible reality of that for many many women.

Absolutely. There are few clearer demonstrations that sex does matter.

I think it is an international outrage that Afghani women had to live like this then and even more so that they've been abandoned to it now. I met a few Afghani women students in the late 1980s and often wondered what happened to them if they went home.

....and the first two episodes of Adam Curtis "The Power of Nightmares"

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p088s5k4

Article here on Afghanistan in the 70s/80s

www.peoplesworld.org/article/afghanistans-socialist-years-the-promising-future-killed-off-by-u-s-imperialism/?fbclid=IwAR0zhnnwF598vnwMHRz8NKC_zGDa7-VL8t4o91OWf6iwfK3w7d8kS5RecHU