Afghan women forced to wear burqa

I understand what is being written of course it won’t go down well on Twitter bingo

We have not been born in Afghanistan or the many other countries that women do not have our freedoms that is not torture for us just lick (I have lived in such a country and my father is from one)

The she is me I am her is such an indulgent western privileged view and provocative when we don’t need to be they know exactly the reaction they shall cause and what will be argued about and it would be about the horrendous hell that women and girls are suffering in Afghanistan.

Do you think these women (if they had the time to dwell of such matters) would see is as the same way because we have a vagina.

It’s using this terrifying situation in an argument (which I fully support) but find it incredibly distasteful and indulgent in this context

But I think the point is that, as the reader says, it's only luck that I as a woman was born in the UK. And if I were born elsewhere, the material reality of my female body, a body that I can never identify out of, would mean that I would be subject to all manner or evil and oppression. And that's what connects us, the inability to 'identify' out of our bodies.

I think this is why people are linking gender ideology with what is happening to women in Afghanistan - because it brings into such sharp relief the oppression that women face based on nothing more than the material reality of being female. That's it. And when you see women here, women who are only liberated because of the hard work of women who have gone before them, calling women who point out the reality of biological sex 'TERF floaters who just won't flush' and similar, it just makes you think that those women are so very privileged that they can hurl those sorts of insults at other women. It's offensive to all those women, not just in Afghanistan, but all around the world and throughout history who have suffered oppression based on their biological bodies, to claim that biological sex doesn't matter, or that its just an abstract concept. When you see the likes of Nicola Sturgeon talking about the plight of 'women in Afghanistan' everyone knows she is talking about those with female bodies, not those who 'identify as women'. Including her. And yet, she will shout 'transphobia' at anyone who dares suggest that it's biology that is the basis of women's oppression?

The only reason we, as females, are liberated in the West is because of the hard work of the women who came before us. Not 'males who identify as women', women. And they didn't make change by simply claiming that biological sex just doesn't exist. Yes there were women in history who pretended to be men in order to be able to do certain jobs, but structural change was never going to happen that way.

And I think we forget as women in the UK, just how relatively recently we have even had these rights - a man could legally rape his wife until the 1990s!!! And what is going on in Afghanistan now is a reminder of just how precarious the rights that are given to those with female bodies actually are.

Sorry I have completely rambled there, but I hope some of that makes sense?

I have a feeling that letter won't go down well on Twitter because of the 'she is me and I am her' part, but then people on Twitter aren't really known for thinking too deeply about things...

I find the letter nauseating

I am not her because we both have a vagina I can feel deeply empathetic becuase I don’t want anyone to suffer and I know women and girls will more so in Afghanistan now

Yes I have struggles at times becuase I am a women and because I was a girl who has been abused

But I can’t not identify myself with the girls and women of Afghanistan because I am a woman. I don’t and have never lived in a society that fear rules everything absolutely everything I do from childhood to adulthood

I’m not comfortable with the trans/queer/self id even being mentioned when we talk about the plight of these women and girls

Posters will often be ridiculed for mentioning that men suffer too. We can all suffer but ffs it’s seems so indulgent to be somehow bring this discussion into what is going on in Afghanistan which is absolutely hell for the majority of the population

That letter was a post on Mumsnet the other day wasn't it? It's brilliant.

Littlebrowndog

Just read that on twitter, and came here to see if soeone had posted it.

fantastic letter, so passionate and clear

Have a read at this. It’s awesome and pulls no punches

www.thenational.scot/news/world/19522429.queer-theory-world-will-not-help-women-afghanistan/?ref=twtrec

I have been in touch with one Afghan women's rights activist. She has zero patience with the Western posts-modernist ideas or those feminists who refuse to say anything at all about, say,, the Taliban or ISIS in case they look like Western white colonisers. She is all about poor treatment of women by sex. She did mention, though, how much she loves feeling the wind in her hair. That is not allowed when a burqa is the obligatory dress for women. Also, most jobs are not possible to do wearing one and even carrying groceries and a child or two in tow is almost impossible.

I fear that the 1990s situation will come back. Women lost essentially all rights, couldn't go out without a male guardian,, couldn't study or work and so on.

The oppression of women has a material ground. It is based on the body and what it can be used for. Erasing the body the way the gender identity theory is doing will not stop that oppression at all but could make it very difficult to address as our words are being erased together with the female body.

I can assure you a hijab or niqab or burkha has never stopped men from harassing and raping women. Never.

When clothing choices are discussed in terms of women being 'safer' from sexual assault - I always think about this exhibition (trigger warning - upsetting) - www.boredpanda.com/what-were-you-wearing-sexual-assault-art-exhibition/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

The women in the Taliban controlled Afghanistan of the 90s were arguably some of the, collectively, most controlled and violently abused women in history. They were also the most covered up. It didn't protect them it was part and parcel of their abuse.

I have been abused by men. It had fuck all to do with how I dressed. The worst abuse I ever suffered was from my XH. Throughout most of our relationship he had very little sexual interest in me. My attractiveness when we met or my overweight, tired, worn out appearance by the end of our marriage meant nothing to him. I was a sop to his ego, something that validated him in someway that he enjoyed.

Not having the freedom to dress as I like wouldn't protect me from anything. I dress mainly for comfort. I'll wear multiple layers when I'm cold, I'll wear crop tops and shorts when it's very hot. And leggings and t-shirts/jumpers in between. If I have any aesthetic, it's that I quite like my muscularity to be visible, because I'm proud of my muscular arms and think muscular women should be visible and normalised as it's healthier for us, especially as we go into menopause and beyond.

I can't change the fact that men are stronger than me. I can acknowledge that most violence against women is domestic and be very careful about who I become involve with. I believe that my "style" as an athletic, muscular woman may send a message to weak minded men that I'm not interested in them or dressing for them. But I can't guarantee that. All I can do is live and dress as I love, for me.

But that's the point - you can choose to do that - nothing you're saying there is particularly unusual (although I would have trouble talking to you, as I find it very difficult when I can't see someone's face)

These women have the opposite problem - if they try to go out dressed as I do (and personally I feel safer when I can move and see freely), then they are punished and abused. It's still women being abused.

Nobody in history has found a solution to stopping men attacking. I don't have one either. Until we do, there are only false senses of security left. Cuz yes, you get attacked no matter what, even in a burka, I get that.

But I mean literally covering all of you, head, hair, face, eyes, all of it, burka. I have however, since covid, since we have mask mandates, taken to wearing large hoodie, mask, sunglasses sometimes. and pants. I actually honestly like it most the time. I do feel safer and empowered. I know it's a false sense. but still. And it's not just safe from being attacked. I'm so sick and tired of everyone even women just seeing my stupid body. Your body is only a source for either attack or for people to make fun of cuz of facial features or etc etc. eff all you then, you are not allowed to even see my body, or face. that's just how I feel. I'd rather people look at literally ONLY the clothes and not any part of me. I like being invisible and can't wait til I'm an older woman and invisible like society makes older women. Some lament it, but I can't wait til I'm over 60 for that!! I'd wear an invisibility cloak 24/7 if I could find one. I've done the whole try and display your body and do it for yourself type thing; it's not for me. I admire women who can and do though, for sure!!!

Some cope differently even if it doesn't keep you full safe.

But, seriously, I bet I'm not the only one who wishes our society prized covering up almost totally as a "normal" thing.

It is a totally normal thing. I'm sitting here in jeans/t-shirt/jumper. Completely normal clothes for a man or a woman, and the only skin you see is my hands and face (wearing socks too). My children are wearing much the same, and I've worn pretty much this every normal day of my adult life.

You say you think covering up to feel safe is OK - yet these women who cover up are still abused, still raped and attacked, because covering up isn't a solution. Stopping the men raping and attacking is the solution.

and then sometimes clothes are just clothes, for fun or culture or tribe etc. But many women do consciously think of the safety aspect. How can we not. We are nothing but bodies anyway to much of society.

the clothing is a way to try and feel in control when in reality pretty much every woman knows deep down that it doesn't matter what you do, what you wear or don't, etc etc, you are amongst the population that males may target for abuse.

it's all a false sense of security, but there aren't as many options otherwise. Even never leaving the house, in real, someone could get in, etc etc.

It's a potential threat. And in some places more than others, obviously.

I don't think women should be shamed for trying out coping skills to feel safe on this hell-hole planet.

But yes, it is angering and sad that women even have to waste energy and thought on safety like this.

It's obviously a false sense of security, any clothing, but humans grasp at what they can get.

So if the burqa is so great, why don't men want to wear it?

because men aren't getting massively raped, attacked, harassed, is why. So some women, even Muslims, feel safer with bodies hidden.
I'm not saying it should have to be that way at all.
But it's reality that women's bodies aren't often safe just for existing. It's trying to protect yourself or feel more empowered and safe with whatever is available to you in your current timeframe.

No, women shouldn't HAVE to be in fear. but they are, many are.
and I'd still rather cover my whole body than have anyone looking at it. It's less acceptable to do that in the West. The majority of people aren't walking around with burkas, niqabs(spelling?) or nuns' habits etc. It's less socially acceptable. And obviously currently more associated with religion, which inivites it's own attacks on you sometimes. How many famous people, influential people, do you so massively covered up?

I'm not saying everyone should feel this way, feel better and more empowered covered up. And it shouldn't even need to be a consideration. but it is.

and same could be said for makeup? why do we need to cover our faces in makeup to feel pretty, or show our faces to the world, or feel empowered. Obviously it's different in most ways, but it's a similar premise: shouldn't women be ok and feel ok to be in society without any extra shit to their bodies?

the men don't have to worry about safety as much in terms of their appearance. It's just a fact that we do. So some cope differently to feel safe than others. Should women have to carry keys in fist in dark parking lots to feel safe? No. But many do, I do.

Thanks, Ereshkiga.

Thank you very much @ArabellaScott and @Jaysmith71 I will look those up.

Hirsi is right. Anyone who is taken in by the Taliban's media training and new PR touch is deluded. Not that this applies to anyone on this thread.

Excellent article by Muslim feminist Ayaan Hirsi Ali https://unherd.com/2021/08/bidens-most-heartless-betrayal/

Now, the Taliban are claiming that women and girls will be able to continue their education, as long as they wear full burkas. Taliban spokesperson Suhail Shaheen explainedd^ that the “policy is that women can have access to education and to work”. However, the reality for Afghan women seems rather different; they are now, for example, barely to be seen on the streets of Afghan citiess^.
Yes, the “modernised” Taliban has done some media training, but we should not be fooled. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan will be governed by the same draconian Sharia law as the Taliban regime of the past. Reportss^ are already emerging of girls being taken as child brides, with the Taliban “ordering local religious leaders to give them a list of girls over 15 years of age and widows under 45” to marry their fighters.
Women’s faces are being whitewashedd^ from billboards throughout Kabul. Women in Kandahar have been toldd^ not to return to their jobs at Azizi Bank, and that instead “male relatives could take their place”. In a small village in the Faryan province, the Taliban knocked on doors and demanded to be fedd^. If women protested, they were beaten and even killed. This is just the beginning.
Over the last several days, I’ve wept bitter tears for the women and girls whose futures are now blighted through no fault of their own. I have felt an overwhelming sense of impotence, even as I have personally tried to help get vulnerable people out of Kabul. But this sense of impotence is now giving way to a feeling of anger and of renewed purpose.

Also heard this morning that Pakistani PM Imran Khan has called the Taliban takeover a 'liberation from the chains of slavery.'

So nice to hear from the former Worcs All-Rounder and West End Playboy turned hair-shirt muslim. His treatment of wives no.1 and 2, Jemima Gldsmith and South Today weathergirl Reham Khan, and numerous other women, makes interesting reading.

A quote from Danny Finkelstein in this mornings Times - I hope he doesn't mind but it relates to many things we discuss here -

The US is a country in which there are heated debates about micro aggressions that somebody may have detected in a book, but shrugs both its left and right shoulders over abandoning millions of women to the most brutal kind of oppression.

Noticing how my llittle Talibfact has shocked some, perhaps a little background would help.

The original Talibs of the 90s were the male war orphans from the Soviet occupation. They were kept in crowded compounds in Pakistan, boys only, raised by men, children who knew no female contact except for whatever distant memories they retained of their mothers, mostly dead.

They were educated in madrassas where scripture was the only lesson on the timetable, reciting passages day in and day out, getting hit with a stick when they got it wrong. They were groomed as cannon fodder for the war and duly sent back.

You could compare them to the Japanese troops in WW2 raised in the Bushido cult, only much worse.

Really - is 'you're all tranphobic' the best you've got?

I suspect the prejudice that drives some posters to follow the feminist threads and post one or two posts that are meant to deride, shame, or as we saw up thread monster others, mostly women, will never be acknowledged.

Some posters have been convinced that they are the arbiters of righteousness and have moral superiority. It very soon becomes apparent they hold very deep prejudices of their own. Which is why they have such an affinity for a misogynist movement that silences women being able to discuss the impacts of that movement on their lives.

Let’s face it. How can they post evidence and robust science to support incisive thinking when the entire movement is based on experiments, both thought and medical. There is nothing left but emotive reasoning, manipulation and attempts at silencing.