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Original poster

Boys school and Transgirls

58 replies

OurMamInHavianas · 11/08/2021 01:35

I’m wondering if a transgirl can apply to a all-boys school?
Don’t girls typically perform better in exams in primary/early secondary, so any entrance exam or 11 plus/12 plus/13 plus exams would favour a female-born person.
So, we could end up with some boys’ school being populated with a large percentage of female-born people?

Just asking out of interest - this doesn’t affect me or my family personally.

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PickUpAPepper · 13/08/2021 04:00

That's a good article. The old idea that human babies are born prematurely so that their brains develop, meaning neurons connect, in a social and cultural context really ought to be better known by now. Among humans, culture dictates the futures of people from birth, not biology.

DdraigGoch · 12/08/2021 23:54

In the past, girls performed better than boys in the 11+ so the results were fiddled without telling the general public, to avoid more girls than boys going to grammar schools. The truth didn't come out for decades.

At the same time, in general society, girls were being told they weren't as intelligent as boys. Gotta love the patriarchy.

Just seen an interesting article in the Telegraph on that subject:
www.telegraph.co.uk/education-and-careers/2021/08/12/girls-really-brainier-boys-science-has-clear-clever-answer/

In short, there's not really any difference between male and female brains, differences in attainment are explained by socialisation. Things like what toys, activities and behaviours are encouraged for boys and girls respectively.

kowari · 12/08/2021 22:06

Single sex schools are just that, gender is irrelevant.

Doublestar · 12/08/2021 21:58

Yes, I've wondered about this. Doesn't really seem to be happening yet - funny that innit?

One way traffic....

ifIwerenotanandroid · 12/08/2021 21:51

@PinkPlantCase

The 11+ exam generally favours boys. Even in the mixed grammar schools in our area there are more boys than girls because they tend to get higher test score on the types of questions in the 11+
In the past, girls performed better than boys in the 11+ so the results were fiddled without telling the general public, to avoid more girls than boys going to grammar schools. The truth didn't come out for decades.

At the same time, in general society, girls were being told they weren't as intelligent as boys. Gotta love the patriarchy.

NewlyGranny · 12/08/2021 21:47

Whereabouts in the ERA 2010 does male privilege get listed then?

Very much a case of, "We'll hang on to what's always been ours while taking what's briefly been yours, too, and there's nothing you can do about it."

Nachthex · 12/08/2021 21:05

I have a trans DD (who wants to be a boy) and she wanted to go to a boys' school for 6th form! We obviously said no. However it turned out she had already approached the boys' without us knowing. Iinterestingly in discussion with the boys' school (and this is one of the country's top boys' schools) they said that they woulddn't have had any problems accepting 'him' (my DD)

Boys' schools often used to take girls in the 6th form as girls' schools sometimes didn't teach some of the subjects girls wanted to study. Or some simply opened up their 6th form to girls anyway - Westminster public school did, maybe does still.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 12/08/2021 16:34

Quite Tibtom, if the school really believed those girls have become boys, then they should not be in a single sexed girls schools

But of course they don’t really believe that at all. I imagine they just smile & nod along to using male pronouns, using a male name & letting them wear male school inform - and cross their fingers & hope that if they start doing the binder/medication route they can claim they didn’t know about it or that they’ll leave school before they start doing it

Tibtom · 12/08/2021 16:26

Most girls schools care deeply about the girls and if they wish to transition they will be supported. Not asked to leave.

What are they supporting them to transition to? Boys? If so then why aren't they asking them to leave? If they don't believe transitioning will turn them into boys then why are they encouraging girls to follow a harmful pathway of binders, drugs, and surgery which changes nothing?

GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal · 12/08/2021 15:44

If they cared deeply about teenage girls they wouldn't be encouraging them in such damaging nonsense.

My DD has always been taught that she can do whatever she likes, dress how she likes (so long as it's weather appropriate!) and present herself however she likes. She's not a "typical girl" by any means. But she is a girl, and will become a woman. Changing pronouns and binding her breasts will not change that.

Bryonyshcmyony · 12/08/2021 14:44

@GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal

Our nearest school is all girls, and by all accounts very woke. I really want to ask them if pupils who transition are asked to leave the school. Because if they aren't, it suggest that either the school doesn't really "believe" they've transitioned, or it's no longer a single sex school (which is a big "selling point" for them).
Most girls schools care deeply about the girls and if they wish to transition they will be supported. Not asked to leave.
RoyalCorgi · 12/08/2021 14:15

Wow, FelineFoxy. That's interesting. I think girls who identify as trans have no idea of the risks they're taking. They are very very naive in assuming they will be accepted as male by their peers. I would expect the school to be aware of the risks, though.

GreeboIsMySpiritAnimal · 12/08/2021 14:08

Our nearest school is all girls, and by all accounts very woke. I really want to ask them if pupils who transition are asked to leave the school. Because if they aren't, it suggest that either the school doesn't really "believe" they've transitioned, or it's no longer a single sex school (which is a big "selling point" for them).

FelineFoxy · 12/08/2021 11:57

Yes, a famous private school

Whatwouldscullydo · 12/08/2021 11:20

Was it a private school?

Talk about selling a lie to parents. Outs all the kids in a position they shouldn't be in. And the parents are being lied to about the school.

There must be some kinda legal issue there ?

timeisnotaline · 12/08/2021 10:46

That’s nuts @felinefoxy, I wonder what steps they planned to keep her safe??

FelineFoxy · 12/08/2021 10:23

she had already approached the boys' school*

FelineFoxy · 12/08/2021 10:20

I have a trans DD (who wants to be a boy) and she wanted to go to a boys' school for 6th form! We obviously said no. However it turned out she had already approached the boys' without us knowing. Iinterestingly in discussion with the boys' school (and this is one of the country's top boys' schools) they said that they woulddn't have had any problems accepting 'him' (my DD)

WarOnWoman · 11/08/2021 20:40

Tibtom BlushBlush

WarOnWoman · 11/08/2021 20:39

*Gender reassignment does not mean they must be treated as the opposite sex.

Anywhere that is single sex (toilets, hospital wards, schools) are already making use of single sex exemptions under the Equality Act - otherwise they would be mixed sex*

Thanks, Titbom. I think I was getting gender reassignment mixed up with having a GRC. I think. Yes, absolutely about someone gender reassignment not being treated as opposite sex and EA exemptions. My OP was a tad clumsy. Blush

transdimensional · 11/08/2021 19:50

I agree that the terms transwomen, transmen, transgirls etc can be confusing, as they sound like they mean the opposite. Unfortunately, you can influence people's views a lot by controlling the language and putting particular words into use.
Perhaps we should use unambiguous terms such as "OMAB transpeople"(Observed-male-at-birth) and "OFAB transpeople". Not as snappy though.

Tibtom · 11/08/2021 13:29

@RoyalCorgi

But I thought gender reassignment only legally applied to adults. For anyone under 18, the protected characteristics of gender reassignment doesn't exist so boys schools wouldn't have to admit any girls and vice versa with girls schools.

This is what makes it difficult legally. As a PP said, the legal definition of "gender reassignment" is very vague, and includes individuals who are planning to change gender:

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex."

So a competent lawyer could argue that a 13-year old could have gender reassignment as a protected characteristic.

However, we also know that there are single-sex exemptions under the Equality Act. I'm not sure if schools would fall under this.

Gender reassignment does not mean they must be treated as the opposite sex.

Anywhere that is single sex (toilets, hospital wards, schools) are already making use of single sex exemptions under the Equality Act - otherwise they would be mixed sex

NecessaryScene · 11/08/2021 13:28

If this stuff worked as it often seems to in formerly-for-women organisations and spaces, a simple declaration of "non-binariness" from a girl should suffice to gain entry, right? A token thing to make you not a "cis girl"?

Except somehow "men and non-binary people" is a pairing that never seems to happen. Hmm

Something's not fully symmetrical here.

DaisyWaldron · 11/08/2021 13:27

@PinkPlantCase

The 11+ exam generally favours boys. Even in the mixed grammar schools in our area there are more boys than girls because they tend to get higher test score on the types of questions in the 11+
I'm pretty sure that isn't the case. I know that when I was sitting the 11+, there wasn't a fixed pass mark, but the top 20% of boys and the top 20% of girls passed the exam, and that girls had to get a higher mark than boys to achieve the same result. I vaguely remember that there was a legal challenge on grounds of sex discrimination a few years later and the whole system in Northern Ireland was changed. At the time it was justified on the grounds that 11year old girls were more mature than 11 year old boys, who would catch up later.
ErrolTheDragon · 11/08/2021 13:15

However, we also know that there are single-sex exemptions under the Equality Act. I'm not sure if schools would fall under this.

I'd have thought that was the only legal basis for there being single sex schools at all. There's certainly no basis for ' single gender' ones (or single gender anything at all)