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Fetishes and Autogynephilia

310 replies

Alonelonelylonersbadidea · 10/08/2021 21:28

I just thought it was worthwhile having a talk about this and we should try not to make 'sweeping negative generalisations', so in the spirit of positivity about fetishes generally, I don't actually have an issue with them if they don't impinge on anyone else. In fact I probably have fetishes of my own. Probably ones which don't fit with my feminist principles. Will maybe come back to that later.
What is the official feminist line on fetishes such as autogynephilia in terms of 'gender'? Is it possible to be 'each to their own' without being negative about cross dressers?

OP posts:
Datun · 17/08/2021 22:18

Well there are a huge, huge amount amount of associations in your post - can I ask how many of these individuals you know personally to be able to draw up such a comprehensive, detailed and scathing psychological and behavioural analysis of them all?

Men with AGP aren't exactly known for keeping it a secret. It's splashed across the internet from one end to the other.

There are thousands of posts on this very site from the women experiencing it from their partners. It's not a complicated paraphilia. And is, I believe, one of the most common. Iirc, amongst male prison inmates it's number one.

LastSummerHere · 17/08/2021 21:51

Suggestions, why on earth would men care less if the see women wearing trousers?🥴 They are unisex nowadays, by the way. It's 2021, not 1921.

Datun · 17/08/2021 21:45

When a man sees a woman wearing stereotypically masculine clothing should he be thinking: "Look at this woman, enjoying wearing the clothes than men wear. I bet she doesn't think at all about the education gap between the sexes, and how boys are failed time and time again by the system. I bet she never thinks of all the men that will die by suicide - 3 to 4 times as many of us as women! What is she doing to address that as she enjoys wearing those men's' clothes? Look at that woman, happily walking along in those trousers and that shirt. She doesn't seem to care in the slightest that I will die 4 years earlier than her. 4 years of my life! A whole 5% of a lifetime less than her, 1460 days less of my life to live, love and enjoy. What is she doing to challenge that? What has she ever done to address this inequality? She has no idea what it is like to be a man, she's not thinking about that at all as she enjoys wearing our clothes"

Correct. Women don't tend to fetishise any perceived male disadvantage. Men as a class are not subordinated. There is no equivalent to AGP.

suggestionsplease1 · 17/08/2021 21:41

@Aparallaxia

Suggestionsplease Here is part of the answer to your questions about AGP as a private fetish: like all fetishes, it involves attaching sexual meaning to objects, properties, processes, or body-parts that do not, in themselves, have a sexual function. There are, for example, e.g. Qing-era Chinese woodcut images that are uncoloured, except that the women’s feet have been picked out in red.

So far, you may think: well, we have to accommodate such people. They are apparently gender-non-conforming, mixing it up, breaking down the boxes, which is what feminists have wanted and have been doing themselves for some time. "Old-fashioned" transexuals were terribly gender-conforming—only it was the opposite gender they wanted to perform, and in every aspect of their lives. An AGP man isn’t like this. He’s a pervert with rose-tinted spectacles about women and a rose-coloured basque.

He looks on female underwear as a sexual prop for himself. He likes to carry it to work with him, to bars, to the game, to PTA meetings maybe; its being secret is part of the thrill, I guess. But if he’s married, maybe (probably) his wife knows about it. Maybe she’s been persuaded or coerced or bullied into “sharing” this secret life. The husband wants to wear this underwear in bed with his wife. Then he wants to play “the female rôle” (which means: being penetrated) while his wife plays “the male rôle”—she has to pretend to be a dominatrix so she can penetrate her husband. He starts wearing female clothing in his leisure hours. He ventures out sometimes in it. Gradually he begins to wear it all the time. He “comes out” as TG.

Now not every male female-underwear wearer goes down this well-trodden path. Some stay at the first stage for decades. What’s the harm in that, you ask?

First, because men who dress like that, also feel a certain way about women. They covet for themselves a very restricted vision of things that they think women have or do and they don’t, not yet: wearing soft fabrics, silk and lace; being able to adorn their persons and be complemented for it; being looked at and admired; being the object of desire. In their minds, they are a woman… but only because of the sexual gratification they receive from being treated “as a woman”, and from women treating them and accepting them as women. Whether we’re talking about secret underwear or surgery, the whole AGP thing is born of a man’s sexual desire to be seen as and be treated, not as a woman, but as he imagines women are and are treated.

Somehow he doesn’t associate being a woman with being paid less than men, being exploited or sex-trafficked, being intimidated, controlled, abused, beaten, raped, or murdered by a partner or ex-partner. He does not demand to be paid less in solidarity with "other women”. He does not start demanding to be given the lion’s share of housework and child-care. He doesn’t start worrying about heavy periods or the effects of the Pill, or about developing polycystic syndrome or breast cancer, or about how menopause will hit them. He doesn’t instinctively avoid dark alleys, dark corners, or anywhere alone with a strange man. (BTW, the murder rate for TG people is lower than it is for the rest of the population.) His is a narrow, sexualized imagining of what being a women involves. For him the “female rôle” is an exciting part in a sexual drama he wants to play again and again and again.

Second, if a man is wearing women's clothing, but otherwise does not perform the female rôle—that is, does not behave as women are conditioned socially to behave—then he will stand out like a sore thumb. There is no getting round this, as yet. There will unavoidably be a cognitive disconnect for those who engage with him, men and women alike. A very tall person in high heels and a short skirt and bright red lippie, who likes talking over people in meetings, is always competitive, can be a bully, is known to drive a powerful car fast and hard, tweets about violent assaults on women’s bodies, conspires with other men to drown women’s criticism of them and their language—all of this behaviour will remain “masculine”. (This is not to say that women cannot be domineering and loud, only that they are conventionally associated with the masculine gender, whereas heels and so on are not.)

So why does this person change their dress, their hair, etc., but not their personality? Why is it just this one aspect of themselves that they have opted to change? What has happened to the rest of "femininity"? Lots of gay men are feminine in various ways—they often like cooking, interior design, clothes, and talking about people and relationships, and often make excellent friends for girls and women. But they wear men's clothes, have (and like) men's bodies, and are definitely men. These men are… what?

This sort of lop-sided "femininity"—high heels and a domineering, look-at-me, violence-loving personality—will be familiar, at any rate to Mumsnetters, from the very masculine abuse and threats of violence, including rape, hurled at “TERFs” and especially at lesbians, who are, of course, very sensitive to these threats, since PWPs have been threatening to "set them straight" with a good dose of cock since time immemorial.

Feminism taught us that “the personal is political”. In this case, that men’s personal choices come from a perverse, incomplete, distorted understanding of women and what it is like to be a woman. He has cut out all of the unwelcome political consequences of that condition and left only a conventional sexual rôle. And the sexual fantasy they construct for themselves is always also for the women around them. They are part of the drama. They can provide validation, if the person transitions to wearing female dress. At the very least, they are also wearing female underwear. How exciting is that! How wonderful and erotic! How could women ever complain about bullying in the workplace or equal pay and conditions or paid maternity leave when they get to go that mAg!cål WºnDerfuŁ place that is Victoria’s Secret and try on padded bras and silk thongs with other women in cubicles around them and no one bats an eyelid! It is so unfair!!

And this is not to talk about which bathroom he will use and how womem will feel about having to accommodate his fantasy. They may not have transitioned physically at all. That person in a short skirt and heels may have a penis and testicles under there. And as we women don't know either way, then our penis-radar will be pinging away like mad. Unless we know better, that person will be perceived by women as a potential threat. We will avoid being alone with this person, apart from others, either inside or outside, unless we know him well and/or someone they know well can vouch for him. We will not readily give him our phone number or address. We will not engage in intimate conversation with him. And so on.

Yet this man's feminine dress is a message to others that he wants to join female conversation and to enter female spaces. So which loo do they use? Do women always have to go to the restroom in couples? This person's behaviour has, in effect, forced these women to accommodate his desire to wear women's clothing while not changing in any other way.

Well there are a huge, huge amount amount of associations in your post - can I ask how many of these individuals you know personally to be able to draw up such a comprehensive, detailed and scathing psychological and behavioural analysis of them all?

Of course there have been similar caricatures developed for gay men and women, and for people of different ethnicities and cultures, in order to demonise them. Luckily most people are aware that people in social groupings aren't demonic caricatures of each other, but are hugely diverse.

When a man sees a woman wearing stereotypically masculine clothing should he be thinking: "Look at this woman, enjoying wearing the clothes than men wear. I bet she doesn't think at all about the education gap between the sexes, and how boys are failed time and time again by the system. I bet she never thinks of all the men that will die by suicide - 3 to 4 times as many of us as women! What is she doing to address that as she enjoys wearing those men's' clothes? Look at that woman, happily walking along in those trousers and that shirt. She doesn't seem to care in the slightest that I will die 4 years earlier than her. 4 years of my life! A whole 5% of a lifetime less than her, 1460 days less of my life to live, love and enjoy. What is she doing to challenge that? What has she ever done to address this inequality? She has no idea what it is like to be a man, she's not thinking about that at all as she enjoys wearing our clothes"

Aparallaxia · 17/08/2021 21:26

This reply has been deleted

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Datun · 17/08/2021 20:44

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

- fetishizing dominant/submissive behaviour pairings

from having read things written by males who identify as women, I think this is a large part of it for many of them. They want to be submissive during sex and just can't deal with doing that as a man.

it's sexist as fuck

They appear to want to force their partner to treat them as submissive. It's just a common or garden coercive mindfuck.
LastSummerHere · 17/08/2021 20:05

[quote Havetotsell]@LastSummerHere

Why are you so angry at a reasonable point.[/quote]

Say what?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 17/08/2021 19:44

- fetishizing dominant/submissive behaviour pairings

from having read things written by males who identify as women, I think this is a large part of it for many of them. They want to be submissive during sex and just can't deal with doing that as a man.

it's sexist as fuck

Datun · 17/08/2021 19:26

I mean, if you're not angry, you're not paying attention.

Havetotsell · 17/08/2021 19:24

@LastSummerHere

Why are you so angry at a reasonable point.

LastSummerHere · 17/08/2021 15:46

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

Justa47

Women have a right to be angry. A subset of men is imitating women with nefarious intent, rewriting the law to shore up their identity and invading women's spaces.

How on earth are we meant to tell the difference between a well meaning transwoman or a man who wants to do us harm? We have safeguarding principles based on groups of people - men for example - who statistically cause more harm to women than vice versa. This is one of the reasons why we have sex-segregated spaces.

How dare you berate a woman for her entirely justified anger. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman, and no idea what it's like to have you very being coopted to fulfil a fantasy.

Step off, the women are talking and you are not welcome in this conversation.

👏👏👏👏👏👏👏

Datun · 17/08/2021 13:50

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Firstly, I think there is an additional fetish behaviour that we are not talking about much here, which is men who are turned on by coercion - either the idea of themselves being "forced" to do something sexually, or turned on by coercing someone else into doing something, or deliberately crossing stated boundaries. There have been several posts mentioning that as part of AGP, but I think it is separate.

YY.

Indeed.

I'm pretty certain Grayson Perry is entirely upfront about this. He gets turned on by dressing as a little girl, but makes absolutely no attempt to actually look like one. It's all ridiculous apple cheeked make up and Heidi wigs. And he said that as people became less shocked at the transgression, the turn on wore off.

He's become so well-known, that the shock value has disappeared, and with it, the arousal.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 17/08/2021 13:34

Firstly, I think there is an additional fetish behaviour that we are not talking about much here, which is men who are turned on by coercion - either the idea of themselves being "forced" to do something sexually, or turned on by coercing someone else into doing something, or deliberately crossing stated boundaries. There have been several posts mentioning that as part of AGP, but I think it is separate.

YY.

InvisibleDragon · 17/08/2021 10:29

A couple of thoughts ...

Firstly, I think there is an additional fetish behaviour that we are not talking about much here, which is men who are turned on by coercion - either the idea of themselves being "forced" to do something sexually, or turned on by coercing someone else into doing something, or deliberately crossing stated boundaries. There have been several posts mentioning that as part of AGP, but I think it is separate. I've known men with no interest in cross dressing who engaged in abusive sexual practices and continually manipulated and pushed boundaries because that act of transgression gave them a sexual thrill. Similarly, making someone complicit in something they then have to keep secret from others. Those kinds of behaviour are clearly abusive and controlling and they are present in so many of the TransWidows' stories. I think that sometimes when this behaviour shows up in the context of someone transitioning it is harder to see and name this coercive behaviour for what it is - partly because of the social stories we have about transition being a courageous exposure of a vulnerable true self, and partly because those narratives are co-opted by the abuser to paint their victim's discomfort about boundary violations as close-minded bigotry.

Secondly, I agree with Aparallaxia about the male perspective that is inherent in the types of clothing that some cross-dressing men desire
They covet for themselves a very restricted vision of things that they think women have or do and they don’t, not yet: wearing soft fabrics, silk and lace; being able to adorn their persons and be complemented for it; being looked at and admired; being the object of desire.

Personally, I find "sexy" underwear etc extremely dehumanising. It is uncomfortable and impractical - often not soft but scratchy, tight and restrictive. And yet it looks "sexy" to a man because it pushes your cleavage up and exposes your skin to be pawed at and leered over. A piece of meat. An object of desire. Perhaps it's because I've experienced sexual trauma that I feel like this, but dressing in a sexy way to be noticed by men is actually something I would prefer to avoid. I find it degrading and humiliating. And yet it is exactly this objectification that some men seem to desire most.

I think there are several different things going on here:

  • a male worldview that sees women as objects of male desire
  • fetishizing dominant/submissive behaviour pairings
  • fetishizing women's objectification
  • fetishizing boundary violations

These things are expressed in different ways - eg sissy porn, cross dressing, transition for AGP-related reasons, coercive control, sexual abuse, BDSM - and in different combinations. But they are connected, like Aparallaxia says, by an underlying worldview (hey, we could call it patriarchy) in which women are seen as existing to support men's desires and in which men are entitled to use women's bodies for their personal gratification.

terryleather · 17/08/2021 09:37

"Fakes"

So not everyone's identity claims can be taken at face value...?

Which is rather the point...

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 17/08/2021 09:07

Justa47

Women have a right to be angry. A subset of men is imitating women with nefarious intent, rewriting the law to shore up their identity and invading women's spaces.

How on earth are we meant to tell the difference between a well meaning transwoman or a man who wants to do us harm? We have safeguarding principles based on groups of people - men for example - who statistically cause more harm to women than vice versa. This is one of the reasons why we have sex-segregated spaces.

How dare you berate a woman for her entirely justified anger. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a woman, and no idea what it's like to have you very being coopted to fulfil a fantasy.

Step off, the women are talking and you are not welcome in this conversation.

guinnessguzzler · 17/08/2021 08:58

Yes, it's just a step away from 'Calm down, dear', isn't it? Hmm

TinselAngel · 17/08/2021 08:46

[quote Justa47]@Aparallaxia

Wow you are very angry.
I read your piece a lot and I find it very anti trans

Of course there are allows men and women that abuse situations.

That’s not the majority of trans people.

Just fakes.

Should we harm people by pandering to the fakes.

You come across as have being hurt. I am sure you won’t admit it. But please seek help.[/quote]
13th rule of misogyny:
*
Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.*

LastSummerHere · 17/08/2021 07:06

Fantastic post Aparallexia...you have described these men perfectly. They wear women like a costume and it is fucking offensive. They can never hide the man beneath.

Aparallaxia · 17/08/2021 06:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Justa47 · 17/08/2021 04:46

@Aparallaxia

Wow you are very angry.
I read your piece a lot and I find it very anti trans

Of course there are allows men and women that abuse situations.

That’s not the majority of trans people.

Just fakes.

Should we harm people by pandering to the fakes.

You come across as have being hurt. I am sure you won’t admit it. But please seek help.

CuntAmongstThePigeons · 17/08/2021 03:24

Great Post aparallexia, sorry I hope I've spelt that right. So clearly sets out agp and how damaging it is to women.

OurMamInHavianas · 17/08/2021 01:56

@LazyViper

Laughable to suggest that a woman announcing her sexuality is in any way equivalent to AGP validation.

It would be a closer match to compare AGP with another kink, not homosexuality. For example, if an adult baby enthusiast had society’s approval to force his way into attending a nursery, where the staff had to change his nappy and burp him over their shoulders or else be shamed and possibly fired for being adultbabyphobics. That’s ludicrous, but a nearer estimation of the AGP social issue than a lesbian coming out.

This
Aparallaxia · 16/08/2021 20:42

Suggestionsplease
Here is part of the answer to your questions about AGP as a private fetish: like all fetishes, it involves attaching sexual meaning to objects, properties, processes, or body-parts that do not, in themselves, have a sexual function. There are, for example, e.g. Qing-era Chinese woodcut images that are uncoloured, except that the women’s feet have been picked out in red.

So far, you may think: well, we have to accommodate such people. They are apparently gender-non-conforming, mixing it up, breaking down the boxes, which is what feminists have wanted and have been doing themselves for some time. "Old-fashioned" transexuals were terribly gender-conforming—only it was the opposite gender they wanted to perform, and in every aspect of their lives. An AGP man isn’t like this. He’s a pervert with rose-tinted spectacles about women and a rose-coloured basque.

He looks on female underwear as a sexual prop for himself. He likes to carry it to work with him, to bars, to the game, to PTA meetings maybe; its being secret is part of the thrill, I guess. But if he’s married, maybe (probably) his wife knows about it. Maybe she’s been persuaded or coerced or bullied into “sharing” this secret life. The husband wants to wear this underwear in bed with his wife. Then he wants to play “the female rôle” (which means: being penetrated) while his wife plays “the male rôle”—she has to pretend to be a dominatrix so she can penetrate her husband. He starts wearing female clothing in his leisure hours. He ventures out sometimes in it. Gradually he begins to wear it all the time. He “comes out” as TG.

Now not every male female-underwear wearer goes down this well-trodden path. Some stay at the first stage for decades. What’s the harm in that, you ask?

First, because men who dress like that, also feel a certain way about women. They covet for themselves a very restricted vision of things that they think women have or do and they don’t, not yet: wearing soft fabrics, silk and lace; being able to adorn their persons and be complemented for it; being looked at and admired; being the object of desire. In their minds, they are a woman… but only because of the sexual gratification they receive from being treated “as a woman”, and from women treating them and accepting them as women. Whether we’re talking about secret underwear or surgery, the whole AGP thing is born of a man’s sexual desire to be seen as and be treated, not as a woman, but as he imagines women are and are treated.

Somehow he doesn’t associate being a woman with being paid less than men, being exploited or sex-trafficked, being intimidated, controlled, abused, beaten, raped, or murdered by a partner or ex-partner. He does not demand to be paid less in solidarity with "other women”. He does not start demanding to be given the lion’s share of housework and child-care. He doesn’t start worrying about heavy periods or the effects of the Pill, or about developing polycystic syndrome or breast cancer, or about how menopause will hit them. He doesn’t instinctively avoid dark alleys, dark corners, or anywhere alone with a strange man. (BTW, the murder rate for TG people is lower than it is for the rest of the population.) His is a narrow, sexualized imagining of what being a women involves. For him the “female rôle” is an exciting part in a sexual drama he wants to play again and again and again.

Second, if a man is wearing women's clothing, but otherwise does not perform the female rôle—that is, does not behave as women are conditioned socially to behave—then he will stand out like a sore thumb. There is no getting round this, as yet. There will unavoidably be a cognitive disconnect for those who engage with him, men and women alike. A very tall person in high heels and a short skirt and bright red lippie, who likes talking over people in meetings, is always competitive, can be a bully, is known to drive a powerful car fast and hard, tweets about violent assaults on women’s bodies, conspires with other men to drown women’s criticism of them and their language—all of this behaviour will remain “masculine”. (This is not to say that women cannot be domineering and loud, only that they are conventionally associated with the masculine gender, whereas heels and so on are not.)

So why does this person change their dress, their hair, etc., but not their personality? Why is it just this one aspect of themselves that they have opted to change? What has happened to the rest of "femininity"? Lots of gay men are feminine in various ways—they often like cooking, interior design, clothes, and talking about people and relationships, and often make excellent friends for girls and women. But they wear men's clothes, have (and like) men's bodies, and are definitely men. These men are… what?

This sort of lop-sided "femininity"—high heels and a domineering, look-at-me, violence-loving personality—will be familiar, at any rate to Mumsnetters, from the very masculine abuse and threats of violence, including rape, hurled at “TERFs” and especially at lesbians, who are, of course, very sensitive to these threats, since PWPs have been threatening to "set them straight" with a good dose of cock since time immemorial.

Feminism taught us that “the personal is political”. In this case, that men’s personal choices come from a perverse, incomplete, distorted understanding of women and what it is like to be a woman. He has cut out all of the unwelcome political consequences of that condition and left only a conventional sexual rôle. And the sexual fantasy they construct for themselves is always also for the women around them. They are part of the drama. They can provide validation, if the person transitions to wearing female dress. At the very least, they are also wearing female underwear. How exciting is that! How wonderful and erotic! How could women ever complain about bullying in the workplace or equal pay and conditions or paid maternity leave when they get to go that mAg!cål WºnDerfuŁ place that is Victoria’s Secret and try on padded bras and silk thongs with other women in cubicles around them and no one bats an eyelid! It is so unfair!!

And this is not to talk about which bathroom he will use and how womem will feel about having to accommodate his fantasy. They may not have transitioned physically at all. That person in a short skirt and heels may have a penis and testicles under there. And as we women don't know either way, then our penis-radar will be pinging away like mad. Unless we know better, that person will be perceived by women as a potential threat. We will avoid being alone with this person, apart from others, either inside or outside, unless we know him well and/or someone they know well can vouch for him. We will not readily give him our phone number or address. We will not engage in intimate conversation with him. And so on.

Yet this man's feminine dress is a message to others that he wants to join female conversation and to enter female spaces. So which loo do they use? Do women always have to go to the restroom in couples? This person's behaviour has, in effect, forced these women to accommodate his desire to wear women's clothing while not changing in any other way.

Mulletsaremisunderstood · 15/08/2021 17:38

@suggestionsplease1

You seem to be suggesting that we should wait for this man to declare what his motivation is before deciding how to react to him.

Of course that's what I'm saying! Why would you judge someone on what they choose to wear?!!

What relevance do his clothes have to you in the conversations you are likely to have with him? None at all.

What this feminist argument seems to be now is "Women and men should not be bound by gender stereotypes and should have the freedom to wear whatever they like. Oh. Except for men. They should only wear stereotypically male clothes and they will be considered perverts if they diverge from this." Way to go feminism.

You are (deliberately?) missing the point. A man can wear whatever he likes, that is not really anyone else's business.

But when that man thinks that wearing women's clothes permit him to enter women's spaces....NO.