Fetishes and Autogynephilia

That’s all right, I’ve read most of Freud, Lacan, Klein, Winnicott, Rivière, Bion, Laplanche/Pontalis et al - so I’ll hold off on the YouTube videos!

foxgoosefinch

I would respectfully invite you to peruse the youTube channel of The Site For Contemporary Psychoanalysis here

www.youtube.com/channel/UCaqYPmWqq3MY6529mxhPRRA/videos

This video of a psychoanalytic psychotherapist's presentation on their channel may be of interest to you. Other of their videos may also be of interest

The novel development of "relational psychoanalysis" might also be of interest

So many rabbit holes, so twisty, so disturbing

I am very tired, more tomorrow (yawns)

I consider all theories to be provisional but worthy of consideration and I am fascinated when psychoanalytic theory becomes used as a tool for social engineering, as is happening now.

Be careful about misattributing this to psychoanalysis though: psychoanalysis was actually diagnostic of this issue, and it’s the eclipse of psychoanalysis by medicalised psychology/psychiatry and identity theories that’s largely fuelled the rise in gender ideology.

Psychoanalysis understood fetishes and paraphilias and how these are formed and acted out all too well. That’s of the reasons why gender ideologists are quick to dismiss it. If we had more psychoanalytic therapies and less surgery and medicalisation we wouldn’t be in quite so much of this mess.

One of the accounts ( quoted in account of the book, ‘Men in the Wrong Bodies’) expressed how upset and remorseful the young man felt after having had an orgasm while wearing the women’s underwear. But that may be normal shame, coming on in spite of the previous euphoric feeling of wearing being relief and a solution.

I think the important thing may be to understand the oscillation between feelings of torment and feelings of euphoria. This is not the same as feeling content / happy. It is the avoidance of feelings of dread by escaping into feleings of intense arousal. I believe the extent to which fetishists feel guilt varies very much between individuals. Some feel none at all, some are consumed with guilt to the extent that it is part of he feelings of dread to be avoided with an escape into the euphoria of fetishism.

I am always repelled by hearing psychoanalytical theories about how women really want phalluses, having had a close male family member who liked to suggest that even to little girls and who was basically misogynist.

I can understand why you and others feel this way. It is important to understand that this desire to possess the phallus is not a simple thing of women wanting to possess a penis.

There are various theories in relation to this and I don't have time to explore them all here and also I probably do not know or understand all of them.

In Freudian theory the phallus represents not just the penis but the power of the patriarchy so it is understandable that it would be desirable.

In Kleinian theory the penis is one of a category of objects represent the contents of the mother's body, something the infant is preoccupied with.

In the primitive infant mind and the later deep unconscious, the mother's body is imagined to contain babies and faeces and multiple penises as well as milk and goodies.

It is the container of the things that go into it and come out of it. It is the provider of nourishment and thus the source of all goodness but is also the focus of rageful infantile projections and thus may appear scary and contain bad things.

Apologies but I have limited time right now and this is deep theory hard to describe succinctly. It is also, and this is extremely important, provisional and hypothetical.

More later, I have to go eat

Hoodathinkit

“experiencedby the fetishist as a very desirable and wonderful solution to extremely distressing internal conflicts.”

One of the accounts ( quoted in account of the book, ‘Men in the Wrong Bodies’) expressed how upset and remorseful the young man felt after having had an orgasm while wearing the women’s underwear. But that may be normal shame, coming on in spite of the previous euphoric feeling of wearing being relief and a solution.

I am always repelled by hearing psychoanalytical theories about how women really want phalluses, having had a close male family member who liked to suggest that even to little girls and who was basically misogynist. But on a simpler level I can understand the lack of boundaries, the enmeshment and possible incestuousness in some mother’s relationships with their children.

In the descriptions you are alluding to, the men do not seem to feel as though they were born with female gender identities. It seems as though, had their mothers treated them differently they might have not had the fetish. Is that right?

ScrollingLeaves

You are very welcome, but please understand that it is a long time since I read the book and so some of my memories may be incomplete and also I may have missed some extremey important aspects

Welldon's nook is very difficult for anyone unfamiliar with psychoanalytic theory to understand and sound quite insane to the average lay person.

It describes primitive early anxieties, relating to anxieties about the mother's body, the contents of the mother's body etc.

It also described the perverse mother's wish to possess the phallus, which she can only possess when pregnant or when she bears a son.

The theories sound quite mad to anyone unfamiliar with the literature.

I consider all theories to be provisional but worthy of consideration and I am fascinated when psychoanalytic theory becomes used as a tool for social engineering, as is happening now.

I can't remember whether it was Welldon or Stoller but I remember reading re fetishism that it is experiencedby the fetishist as a very desirable and wonderful solution to extremely distressing internal conflicts.

The patient has little to no motivation to change because they have no desire to feel terrifying anxieties and conflicted feelings that arise when they are not indulging in their fetish.

Claims about suicide are relevant here as some fetishists are tormented by unbearable feelings and impulses when they are unable to indulge in their fetishes.

Obviously, while one can feel compassion for any person tormeted by inner conflicts it is a significant leap to suggest that society accomodates these fetishes in order to prevent suicides.

I should also point out that WElldon worked at the Portman Clinic part of the Tavi and Portman NHS Trust, which was the part of the Trust working with forensic issues, she was thus working with patients who were involved with, or at risk of involvment with, the criminal justice system.

This last aspect is important as I would not wish to imply that Welldon's theories apply to all men with AGP - I am not even sure that Welldon mentioned AGP specifically, but the descriptions her male patients describe resonate strongly with the descriptions in the link early in the thread

hoodathunkit
Thank you. That is very interesting, I never knew about those ideas.

I read through the descriptions the men were giving of their fetishes. I’d be so interested to know more about any explanations as to how they come to be this way.

It has been a long time since I read the book, but certainly the 1st edition of Mother Madonna Whore bythe psychoanalyst Estella V Welldon posited as follows (as far as I remember);

Not every woman is naturally maternal and some mothers are perverse.

These mothers do not understand that their children are little people and instead consider them as transitional objects.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfort_object

The perverse mother may obtain gratification from pregnancy and may bear many children, however her children are always a disappoinment to her as they fail to meet the mother's narcissistic and other needs in the way she hopes and imagines they will.

Perverse mothers not uncommonly fail to validate their child's gender identity. Some are seductive and even incestuous towards their male children.

Weldon provides clinical examples of mothers who describe sexually seducing their sons. She also, IMMIC, reports that some needy, unboundaried mothers share a bed with their sons into the sons teens, thus, while not actually seducing the son, creating a situation in which the son's puberty creates a highly disfunctional, sexually charged, incestuous dynamic.

This reslts in the male child experiencing conflicts in relation to his gender identity and may result in transsexualism. The transsexualism / fetishism is an attempt at mastery over feelings of hatred towards the mother and effectively avoids the feelings of trauma associated with incest / seductive mother via perversion and fetishism.

Proviso - there is probably much more to the theories in the book, this is the bare bones of what I remember.

What is fascinating about Welldon's theories is that she was based at and worked at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust for many years. That's the same NHS Trust that GIDS is based at.

The Trust has done a little piourette on the head of a needle and conpletely changed its stance re transsexualism, fetishim and perversion in the matter of a few short years. I find this absolutely fascinating.

I read through the descriptions the men were giving of their fetishes. I’d be so interested to know more about any explanations as to how they come to be this way.

Some mention strange fantasies very young but then getting sexually hooked in at about 14 trying on their mother it sister’s clothes in secret. I wonder if it gets hard wired because they are so young and they get hooked?

It certainly seems clear that a proportion of transwomen must be this way.

I think the title ‘Men Trapped in the Wrong Bodies’ is wrong, on the grounds that they need to be men first in order to have these orgasm inducing fantasies about how shaving their legs, breast feeding etc.

No woman do that I know of!

This is a hugely important topic and I am glad to see it being discussed.

It's so difficult because if you bring up AGP, people don't know what the hell you're talking about, and then you have to explain it, and they get embarrassed and think you are just a pervert.

Or some kind of weird conspiracist, with a Mary Whitehouse bent.

As other people have noted, where do the general public think all the transvestites have gone?

[quote OhHolyJesus]A useful thread...I say useful, I actually mean quite frightening and kind of gross...but important nonetheless.

twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1466071208970137616?s=21[/quote]
That thread is pretty disturbing to read. This should be much more widely shown and discussed so people understand what's really the motivation behind all this. Men using us to facilitate their twisted fantasies. And so many young women pandering to this.

It's so difficult because if you bring up AGP, people don't know what the hell you're talking about, and then you have to explain it, and they get embarrassed and think you are just a pervert.

They are using our biological experiences as wank-fodder, and if we complain we are the bad guys and they are the victims! It's basically psychological abuse hiding in plain sight!!

A useful thread...I say useful, I actually mean quite frightening and kind of gross...but important nonetheless.

twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1466071208970137616?s=21

I've known 2 women who have been in AGP relationships.

One, tried very hard to accept her husband when he 'came out' to her and even took him shopping for clothing and wigs etc.

As time went on and she became more accepting (although, not necessarily more comfortable), he became emboldened to explore more extreme fetishes, including (but not limited to) wearing adult nappies, which he'd then soil and expect her to change.

He then started joining groups of like-minded men and taking them home - expecting his poor wife to have threesomes. Any time she objected, he threatened suicide and his behaviour became unstable and frightening.

They had a young son and this is what prompted her to leave in the end as her husband's proclivities were spilling out into their family life more and more.

Their entire life was now about him and his kinks. He didn't care about the effect it had on her - she was just a prop for his fantasies and he used her good nature against her.

This was about 30 years ago now and thank goodness she finally got away. I'm absolutely sure that her ex husband will now be one of those middle-aged men claiming trans status and expecting special privileges for being one of the 'vulnerable minority' who are the most oppressed people ever.

She, on the other hand, has never been able to trust another man or form a normal, loving relationship because of him. Whenever I hear these men talk about 'cis' privilege, it makes me want to spit.

I’ve copied part of a post from another thread, which is relevant:

Well there is an aspect of period fetish in autogebphylic males. There are boards where trans women discuss how to mimic a period and how to make fake blood etc. I won’t share this as it’s disturbing to read.

So yes, it is important to make sure safe facilities are provided for menstruating women and girls without having to be the subject of being fetishized by autogenphylic males.

Update, went to gym today and the signs now say 'female' changing area. That is better than 'women' as less likely to have a male try to get in.

*I only say biological woman to make the point that we don't have willys.

I regularly go swimming and there are only a few cubicles, no problem as we biological women change in the shared area. I honestly don't know what I would do if a man dressed as a woman entered.

Can I currently still say to him that this is the women's changing area or am I supposed to run away leave if I feel uncomfortable?

What would the equivalent be for women? Forced leadership? Strengthification?

I quite fancy dressing in really practical clothes and having somebody tell me how great I am

My earlier post got deleted, I have no idea why. Anyway, here's an excellent Twitter thread from a trans man who has transitioned and has developed an excellent attitude to women:

twitter.com/Noneofy73003973/status/1427978099153584130

Some men who crossed dress get involved in things like forced feminisation and sissification. What would the equivalent be for women? Forced leadership? Strengthification?

@Datun You definitely win MN today!

Indeed Datun

The presence of a stuffed bra is usually a good indicator