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Fetishes and Autogynephilia

310 replies

Alonelonelylonersbadidea · 10/08/2021 21:28

I just thought it was worthwhile having a talk about this and we should try not to make 'sweeping negative generalisations', so in the spirit of positivity about fetishes generally, I don't actually have an issue with them if they don't impinge on anyone else. In fact I probably have fetishes of my own. Probably ones which don't fit with my feminist principles. Will maybe come back to that later.
What is the official feminist line on fetishes such as autogynephilia in terms of 'gender'? Is it possible to be 'each to their own' without being negative about cross dressers?

OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 11/08/2021 13:33

Because honestly, the people 'being kind' and arguing for inclusion are not thinking of men with transvestic fetishism. If they understood they had been recruited to the cause of transvestic fetishism, they'd back pedal pretty fast, I reckon.

picklemewalnuts · 11/08/2021 13:31

So you are arguing about the name, not the existence of the behaviour?

Gottalife · 11/08/2021 12:02

@terryleather

So many folk proclaiming AGP isn't a "thing" Gottalife, so many folk telling us to look the other way.

Too late. We can see.

?
Gottalife · 11/08/2021 12:00

[quote R0wantrees]But she doesn't talk about AGP. And it is not in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. The label needs to be binned.

Hewitt describes, "people who fetishistically cross dress" and clarifies this is generally men wearing women's underwear.

Wiki
"Transvestic fetishism is a psychiatric diagnosis applied to those who are thought to have an excessive sexual or erotic interest in cross-dressing; this interest is often expressed in autoerotic behavior. It differs from cross-dressing for entertainment or other purposes that do not involve sexual arousal. Under the name transvestic disorder, it is categorized as a paraphilia in the DSM-5... The DSM-5 states that adolescent and adult males with late-onset gender dysphoria "frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." "Habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia" is given as a risk factor for gender dysphoria to develop." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism[/quote]
Transvestic fetishism is the correct term.

OvaHere · 11/08/2021 11:52

@SmokedDuck

Oops - posted too soon. When we consider that fetish, by definition, tends to mean that a person often will not be able to have a very satisfying "normal" sex life, I think it becomes questionable that it isn't harmful, at least to the person involved.

Real fetishes largely seem to occur outside of the control of the individual, but I can't help but think that by normalising them, and also by exposing young people to more sexual material at young ages, or weird/unusual sexual images, we make that more likely to develop.

I've mentioned this before but a few years ago I read an interview with a man who used to work in Customs (pre internet age) and whose job it was to monitor, and potentially seize, pornography coming through the border into the country.

I wish I'd saved it because I've never been able to find it again since. He made a point of saying that it's supply that creates the demand and he took very seriously the question of acceptability in wider society.

His argument was that the vast majority of people would never entertain the thought of certain extreme sex acts or fetishes if they were never introduced to them in the first place.

Then the internet happened.

I don't know if this guy was right but it's certainly food for thought and of course now the stable door is open and the horse well and truly bolted.

R0wantrees · 11/08/2021 11:44

But she doesn't talk about AGP. And it is not in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. The label needs to be binned.

Hewitt describes, "people who fetishistically cross dress" and clarifies this is generally men wearing women's underwear.

Wiki
"Transvestic fetishism is a psychiatric diagnosis applied to those who are thought to have an excessive sexual or erotic interest in cross-dressing; this interest is often expressed in autoerotic behavior. It differs from cross-dressing for entertainment or other purposes that do not involve sexual arousal. Under the name transvestic disorder, it is categorized as a paraphilia in the DSM-5... The DSM-5 states that adolescent and adult males with late-onset gender dysphoria "frequently engage in transvestic behavior with sexual excitement." "Habitual fetishistic transvestism developing into autogynephilia" is given as a risk factor for gender dysphoria to develop." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestic_fetishism

terryleather · 11/08/2021 11:36

So many folk proclaiming AGP isn't a "thing" Gottalife, so many folk telling us to look the other way.

Too late. We can see.

Gottalife · 11/08/2021 11:31

@pombear

I was just posting on another thread but it disappeared, as apparently we're not allowed to talk about this thing.

Despite a respected NHS advisor talking about the same thing in a room full of healthcare professionals:

Tara Hewitt, a prominent NHS advisor explaining that people with a cross-dressing fetish come under the trans umbrella:

Definition of trans starts at 4.20
Specific mention of fetish at 5.28

Never get tired of pointing out that Tara pointedly describes it as, in Tara's own words:

people who fetishistically cross dress so they wear clothing to get a sexual desire out of the clothing of the opposite gender...so generally men wearing women's underwear

I don't know many women who wear boxer shorts and find that sexually arousing

But she doesn't talk about AGP. And it is not in the DSM-5 or ICD-10. The label needs to be binned.
happydappy2 · 11/08/2021 11:24

My thoughts are...I accept some men like to cross dress, that's fine BUT I draw the line at them expecting to access public spaces/services for women & girls. If some men are allowed in then that's the end of single sex provision which is sadly very much needed.

It was very clever to use the word trans rather than transexual, as makes it sound far more friendly & unproblematic, leading smoothly into the invention of the trans child.

Also, if someone has gender dysphoria, I'm not convinced that suggesting to them to 'live as the opposite sex' is necessarily the best solution. For many, this is simply unachievable & will lead to more problems/confusion/hurt/anxiety etc.

If a patient presented with anorexia, we would treat their mind, not agree with them that they are overweight....

Datun · 11/08/2021 11:20

@PermanentTemporary

Fetishes are the flaw in pure gender critical thinking (mine included) which says that men wearing women's clothes shouldn't matter at all and that clothes shouldn't be coded m/f. It doesn't take account of what is going on around someone's choice to present unconventionally from a gender point of view. The strength of the different strands of wanting to appear outside convention, and performing an escape from your own life, and getting something sexual from your own appearance, and whether you want someone else to be involved/notice that, and the circumstances which you want that to occur in, seem to really vary. Grayson Perry for example seems to have a strong strand of being outside convention and of performing. But he's also referred to his 'sexy, fetishy thing' of cross dressing.

I believe that if there were no clothes coded masculine or feminine at all, it wouldn't make much difference to women's status in society. I also don't think it would happen. I think about Wild Swans, where the Communist Party mandated identical clothes for men and women, and women stayed up at night crafting the tiniest differences in their clothes in order to signal their femininity. In all this, the staus of women was genuinely better than in previous revolutionary China, but that wasn't saying bloody much, nor were women truly equal.

I don't think it would matter what marker is used to fetishise women. It just happens to be clothes as the easiest one. But women's menstruation is sexually fetishised, pregnancy, breastfeeding, even as we have seen lately, stillbirth. Anything that marks someone as a woman, will be used to fetishise their subordination.
R0wantrees · 11/08/2021 11:18

Fetishes are the flaw in pure gender critical thinking (mine included) which says that men wearing women's clothes shouldn't matter at all and that clothes shouldn't be coded m/f. It doesn't take account of what is going on around someone's choice to present unconventionally from a gender point of view.

These Chains That Have No Name: Interview with Trans Widows Voices
by By Donovan Cleckley -March 31 for Women Are Human.

(extract)
DC In the past, I have pointed readers toward the stories of trans widows, both those seen at Trans Widows’ Voices and elsewhere, such as Christine Benvenuto’s 2012 book Sex Changes. But one characteristic I have noticed, though, even strikingly exhibited among women, is denialism. And it tends to manifest in multiple layers. First and foremost, one denies that any man would do what these men do in the private sphere to women around them. It resembles the denialism toward domestic violence more generally. One might assume that a man would only identify as a woman from love, as a man would only marry a woman for love.

TWV We are all, men and women alike, guilty at one time or another of denying the evidence before our own eyes, because it does not fit in with what we have previously believed – or because it enables us to reinforce an aspect of our beliefs or personality that is important to us. For example, I have just spent a disturbing weekend watching the recent Woody Allen documentary and asking myself why I ignored for so long what was in plain sight. But it was because it concerned a man whose work I admired.

I encountered an interesting example of denialism recently among gender-critical feminists in the UK. There was a story in the newspapers here about a man who worked in a supermarket and how he had obtained the agreement of his employers to wear a skirt – that is, the female uniform, rather than the trousers customary for male employees. He said that he doesn’t think that he is a woman; he just finds women’s clothes more comfortable.

Gender-critical feminists believe that gender nonconformity is perfectly acceptable, and that, if more people were accepted when they showed nonconformity with sex-role stereotypes, there would be no need for people to feel that they have to transition. These feminists believe that the problem is not in what you wear; it is in the idea that what you wear can change your sex.

Unfortunately, in this instance, the desire of many feminists to show that they are accepting of gender-nonconforming behavior entirely overrode their usual ability to think critically. They took the man’s claims entirely at face value, and, for a couple of days, gender-critical social media was full of women saying “Good on him!,” “We need more of this!,” etc.

What they failed to notice was that the man in question, if you applied a modicum of critical thought to the article, was very plainly autogynephilic and had been given a license to exercise his fetish at work. Aside from wearing a skirt, if you actually looked at the images of him, he was wearing women’s shoes, stockings/tights, and a padded bra. Further, he described a typical pattern of escalating boundary-breaching behavior – and that he had high heels, makeup, and wigs at home. Also, he described, in his own words, ‘borrowing’ clothes from girlfriends. He was duping everybody around him about his motivation.

Some of the women supportively sharing the article became very defensive when challenged, even when challenged by women who had their own experience of living with this kind of behavior and who they would usually support. The only bright side of the whole sorry incident, is that it convinced me that those women who look down on us for not leaving sooner, and who say they would have left at the first sign of that sort of behaviour, are actually just as gullible as we were, if not more so.

We all want others to think that we are not bigots, but it behooves us all to think about when our performance of not being bigoted toward crossdressing men becomes actively bigoted against women." (continues)
www.womenarehuman.com/these-chains-that-have-no-name-interview-with-trans-widows-voices/

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2021 10:54

Not enough space to share my whole thoughts and experiences but that's my gut feeling.

That was a really interesting perspective, thank you.

PermanentTemporary · 11/08/2021 10:45

Fetishes are the flaw in pure gender critical thinking (mine included) which says that men wearing women's clothes shouldn't matter at all and that clothes shouldn't be coded m/f. It doesn't take account of what is going on around someone's choice to present unconventionally from a gender point of view. The strength of the different strands of wanting to appear outside convention, and performing an escape from your own life, and getting something sexual from your own appearance, and whether you want someone else to be involved/notice that, and the circumstances which you want that to occur in, seem to really vary. Grayson Perry for example seems to have a strong strand of being outside convention and of performing. But he's also referred to his 'sexy, fetishy thing' of cross dressing.

I believe that if there were no clothes coded masculine or feminine at all, it wouldn't make much difference to women's status in society. I also don't think it would happen. I think about Wild Swans, where the Communist Party mandated identical clothes for men and women, and women stayed up at night crafting the tiniest differences in their clothes in order to signal their femininity. In all this, the staus of women was genuinely better than in previous revolutionary China, but that wasn't saying bloody much, nor were women truly equal.

GNCQ · 11/08/2021 10:37

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

IvyTwines2 · 11/08/2021 10:30

I wonder if the nomination of the Torrey Peters book for the Women's Prize had the opposite effect from that intended? It was mentioned everywhere for a while and I saw people hailing the nomination as wonderful and progressive, and then I think people must have actually read it, and some of Peters' other writing around sissy culture and forced-femme, and the penny dropped. I think lumping all these different types of person under the one short word 'trans' is not at all helpful to those whose situation is very different to that of the sissy-porn or anime-addicted types.

R0wantrees · 11/08/2021 10:23

I think having crossdressers under the trans umbrella and potentially then meaning sharing womens spaces is mental, frankly.

Women Speak Scotland
June 23, 2021
'The Trans Umbrella Is Older Than You Think'
(extract)
"Press For Change is the organisation that is pretty much solely responsible for the Gender Recognition Act being passed in 2004. They championed the use of the term ‘trans’ precisely because it made no distinction between ‘transsexual’ and ‘transvestite’. Christine Burns:

‘Until human rights campaigners like us came along, talking about umbrella concepts, this diverse community had got along with a relatively stable lexicon for many years. There were ‘transvestites’ and ‘transsexuals’ – TVs and TS’s in the community shorthand – and that was more or less the only language you needed to know for more than a generation since Harry Benjamin had coined the latter term in his book ‘The Transsexual Phenomenon’ in 1966.

‘Our successes as a campaign were grounded in progress made for people who fitted the clinical definition of transsexual. At the heart of this was a tacit understanding that people in positions of power might be persuaded to change laws for people with some kind of clinically underwritten status – something they couldn’t help being. This is why ‘Transsexualism – The Medical Viewpoint’ was seen as strategically important and why all the key court cases had rehearsed the developing scientific understanding of a basis for us being born or developing this way. It was also why the government would expect to include a medical definition of ‘transsexual’ in the forthcoming employment protections they planned to consult upon.

‘We knew in our hearts at that time that policymakers and judges weren’t yet sophisticated enough in their understanding to contemplate rights for people whose difference appeared self-identified or impermanent or maybe even optional. That didn’t mean we weren’t going to try where possible. There was a valid freedom of expression case to be made for people to be able to present in whatever way they wish. But we were also pragmatists, careful not to frighten the horses at this early stage. (Note, however, that in the Equality Act 2010 – which replaced the Sex Discrimination Act – the requirement for having been medically diagnosed was finally removed).

‘I cannot recall exactly how we reached a consensus inside Press for Change. It wasn’t written down in email correspondence – it arose in telephone or face to face conversations, including the long calls I was now having with Claire McNab on Sunday afternoons before setting off for another hotel. Somehow or other, however, we arrived at a consensus that if we maybe all used the word ‘trans’ as an umbrella term – and words like ‘transsexual’ only when we needed to be more specific’ then maybe some of that would catch on gradually.

‘And so that is what we did. From there on, without fanfare, my essays and our web content discreetly began to use this language. Claire took the opportunity during the move of the PFC website to revise the existing content in the same way.

‘In the weeks and months ahead people would sometimes ask what the word meant or why we were using it. Then we would explain the rationale and suggest why we thought it was important. The change was gradual. In fact it took years for the word to begin sounding familiar and to hear it in other people’s language. In 2002 when we were consulting over government press releases to announce the forthcoming Gender Recognition Bill, the officials still weren’t convinced that enough people understood the new word to use it. Yet today most people seem to embrace the word naturally – when they are not simply calling themselves men or women.’

(From Christine Burns: Pressing Matters Vol. 1)

Throughout the history of trans rights campaigning there has never been a time when transsexuals and transvestites were not working together, involved in the same groups, pursuing the same aims, or at least intertwining their aims in mutually beneficial ways. All that happened in the mid 2010’s is that they started being open about this and stopped pretending it was all about rights for a tiny number of transsexuals." (continues)

womenspeakscotland.com/2021/06/23/the-trans-umbrella-is-older-than-you-think/

Fefefe · 11/08/2021 10:14

Putting my head above the line here but i kinda have experience here. In my personal dating life i was a dominatrix. I just enjoyed the whole sissiyfication thing. I would only date men who were into it. I didnt have any negative experinces as such but through time i just couldn't deal with seeing men who acted like the very worse stereotypes of what they they thought women were like. Being around a man who wants to be called every degrading name we hate, who act like the most sexually submissive women does leave you convinced that it isn't just a leave at the door thing, i mean how can you think all that and not think women are like that and by default let that show through how you treat women?

I didn't want to be adding to that.

I think having crossdressers under the trans umbrella and potentially then meaning sharing womens spaces is mental, frankly.

Not enough space to share my whole thoughts and experiences but that's my gut feeling.

Im settled down now and have a wee 7 month girl and i want better for her. Whilst i dont think in theory crossdressing is harmful i have seen the underlying current and i hate the thought of my wee girl growing up with those attitudes around her.

Im definitely not vanilla in any sense of the word but i do now see what really is projected when a man plays as a woman.

IvyTwines2 · 11/08/2021 09:40

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Clara, is it ok to say that, having been sexually assaulted by men in the past, my fear and anxiety around around TW in single-sex spaces is because they are male, regardless of what they call themselves? And that therefore I find TW more dangerous than other males, because other men are less likely to enter a single-sex space?

If not, please delete this comment, not the thread. Thank you.

I feel the same way: there's a Catch 22 which is that if a male genuinely 'thought like a woman' they would understand how intimidating and triggering it is for many woman to be in a small, enclosed, out of the way room with a taller, stronger, male-bodied stranger. Though I'll add that the male-presenting, 'average' heterosexual males who nevertheless choose to use the 'cubicles only' toilets rather than 'cubicles and urinals' when a venue has made their toilets all mixed sex are more disturbing to me: there isn't even the excuse that they're scared to use the other facility.
picklemewalnuts · 11/08/2021 08:34

Absolutely, @thinkingaboutLangCleg

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 11/08/2021 08:16

My point was that seeing a man acting out a sexual fetish — cross-dressing or any other — in public is intimidating to me.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 11/08/2021 08:06

Clara, is it ok to say that, having been sexually assaulted by men in the past, my fear and anxiety around around TW in single-sex spaces is because they are male, regardless of what they call themselves? And that therefore I find TW more dangerous than other males, because other men are less likely to enter a single-sex space?

If not, please delete this comment, not the thread. Thank you.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 11/08/2021 08:00

Yes, I’ve worked with a male with autogynaephilia who very clearly brought his kinks to work. I did not enjoy it.

I should be able to work without worrying about encountering inappropriate and sexual behavior in the women’s toilets

OhHolyJesus · 11/08/2021 07:47

Some interesting videos here:

Young man discuses his autogynephilia

State Media clip with Ray Blanchard

Long interview with Blanchard

Being married to an AGP

Being male and having an AGP father

Being female with an AGP father

picklemewalnuts · 11/08/2021 07:35

I'm really struggling with expressing myself- I've written and rewritten the below several times. I'm still not sure it says what I intend!

With regard to transvestites conducting their fetish on an unconsenting public, strangely I have less discomfort with this than other manifestations of 'crossing behaviour'.

I can accept someone cross dressing if it is honest. I don't care what someone wears, if they want to wear unconventional clothes, so be it. It becomes unacceptable when I am expected to perform as well.

Back in the day there were lots of strikingly presented groups- punks, goths- all appeared outlandish. I was happy to perhaps take a second look to process an unexpected outfit/hairstyle/piercing/tattoo, then accept and move on (Nothing seems that striking anymore).
I'd be equally happy to accept cross dressers in the same way.

I am not happy to be expected to role play that they are women, not in public, not in private, not in toilets/medical facilities etc.

JustcameoutGC · 11/08/2021 06:54

This thread has been so illuminating. Every day is a learning day on mumsnet!