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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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#AskRapeCrisisScotland

358 replies

MaudTheInvincible · 10/08/2021 19:17

Is trending at number 1 in the UK at present. I haven't been around all day so I'm not sure what this has happened in response to and came here to find out, but there aren't any threads. Heart breaking reading these stories and the effects on rape victims who can't access support services because they've been excluded by male-centring policy.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2021 21:57

If this was a female CEO, and it wasn't to do with trans issues, they'd be out the door already.

AssassinatedBeauty · 10/08/2021 21:56

@Loobylouu why do you think that people posting here haven't read or listened to the actual words said?? I certainly have and I disagree with you on every point.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2021 21:56

Reframing trauma is also an accepted term

Reframing trauma is not about centring the feelings of the counsellor over those of the victim. Wadhwa's use of the term is gaslighting, as has been pointed out on Twitter multiple times.

mynameisnotkate · 10/08/2021 21:56

The positive thing we are hoping will come from this is that Rape Crisis Scotland will realise that what has been said is outrageous and will keep many, many vulnerable women from accessing their badly needed services and they will sack their CEO who made these indefensible comments and issue a statement to make it clear that they are a safe space for all vulnerable women, no matter what their political beliefs are.

I doubt that’s going to happen but that’s why what is happening now is really important - if we get this enough sunlight maybe it will lead to a rape service accessible by all rather than a rape crisis accessible to those with the correct ideology, from which many other vulnerable women will not only be turned away but will be shamed instead of supported.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2021 21:54

I think it's really important to look at what Mridul Wadhwa actually said, because it's actually very considered and compassionate.

No, it wasn't.

Tempnamechanger321 · 10/08/2021 21:50

So I was deleted for stating a fact. Jesus Christ. What is wrong with this place?!

Loobylouu · 10/08/2021 21:48

I think it's really important to look at what Mridul Wadhwa actually said, because it's actually very considered and compassionate. You're not going to be attacked or judged if your trauma response might seem to the uninformed as prejudice, but if you come in and you have prejudice that's not as a result of your trauma and you start to make this a place that isn't safe for other users, that's when you're going to be called out on it. Which is fair. Reframing trauma is also an accepted term, we reframe trauma so that we are able to relieve ourselves of feelings of guilt and shame. That's a good and healthy thing to do.

For Women Scotland have misrepresented what Wadhwa said, when you read what she's actually said there's honestly nothing wrong with it.

'But there are a group of survivors who will be watching and seeing what is being played out about spaces that they're potentially going to use. And be informed or misintormed about what actually happens here and be possibly be fearful. And I think if you're worried about these things, about inclusion and what trans inclusion means within women's organisations, and if your local women's organisation of Rape Crisis Centre or Women's Aid is openly trans inclusive, and you just don't understand, reach out to them and ask those questions. I think its important to know that we see you as an individual. And we come as survivors with experiences that often feel to the outside world as holding prejudice. So we might have foar of man of a certain ethnicity, we might have fear of sans people, and it could be linked to an experience of trauma. I think it is it is okay to hold those things as long as you are willing to acknowledge that, in support, we will accept that

But there is a difference also when, and I am not sure if I said this as clearly and transparently as I want to, but I'm trying. Apologies, it I havest done it wes. But I think the other thing is that sexual violence happens to bigoted people as well. And so you know, it is not discerning crime. But these spaces are also for you. But if you bring unacceptable beliefs that are discriminatory in nature, we will begin to work with you on your journey of recovery from trauma. But please also expect to be challenged on your prejudices, because how can you heal from trauma and build a now relationship with your trauma, because you can't forget, and you can't go back to Ble before traumatic incident or traumatic incidents. And some of us never, ever had a life before traumatic incidents. But if you have to retrame your trauma, I think it is important as part of that reframing, having a more positive relationship with it, where it becomes a story that empowers you and allows you to go and do other more beautiful things with your life you also have to rethink your relationship with prejudice. Otherwise, you can't really, in my view, recover from trauma and I think that's a very important message that I am often discussing with my colleagues that in various places Because you know, to me, therapy is political, and it isn't always seen as that.'

Artichokeleaves · 10/08/2021 21:47

Four points regarding this that I thought were particularly acute on Twitter today:

  • Help with the caveat of moral judgement and correction, is not the type of help that should be left behind in the Victorian era where it belongs. Demanding lip-service to an ideology as a barrier to adequate care is appalling behavior.

  • In the past women had to renounce their sins or accept religion to access mother and baby homes or to receive help. That this kind of thinking is making a come back in government funded services for women who are tax payers is appalling.

  • Pushing a political view on to a woman at a time of profound trauma and crisis is inappropriate, unethical and unprofessional.

  • No matter the views of the therapist, it is completely inappropriate to push religious, political or cultural views on to the client during sessions. Ever. This is basic training. This is a total failure of professional competence.

ClaraMumsnet · 10/08/2021 21:36

@Waitwhat23 Thanks for flagging the cultish post. We rely on reports of posts which break our talk guidelines so do hit report to let us know.

I've flagged your comments about the wording. We do remove posts which are aggressive or uncivil towards gender critical feminists. We don't want to remove threads, which is why we're asking that people post within the guidelines. If we have to remove half the posts on a thread, then it becomes unreadable, and then the thread is likely to be deleted.

Unsure33 · 10/08/2021 21:26

Also why cant people talk in plain English . The statement is a load of twaddle deliberately made that way to hide a dangerous message

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/08/2021 21:26

You must have chosen a particularly agregious combination of words?

PronounssheRa · 10/08/2021 21:24

@Congressdingo

I said the same as many on here, in a different way but I'm deleted and as yet no one else is?
I was deleted too for pointing out MWs own statements.

I will say again though if language is obscured in this way it makes the things some people say seem less awful.

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2021 21:22

@ClaraMumsnet in addition, users have asked for the following to be amended so that instead of reading -
'We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards trans people. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.'

To say instead - We don’t allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive. We believe there are ways to express both opinion and facts without crossing this line.

As otherwise it rather reads as if you allow posts which are derogatory or aggressive towards GC feminists.

But then, perhaps this is covered in your 'women's rights moderation policy'.

ArabellaScott · 10/08/2021 21:21

Regards a 'campaign', I did see a tweet from a trans activist earlier asking for people to 'flood' the # to ... well, you can read it for yourself:

mobile.twitter.com/faemarienne/status/1425172465106489349

That's all I've seen.

Tempnamechanger321 · 10/08/2021 21:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Congressdingo · 10/08/2021 21:18

I said the same as many on here, in a different way but I'm deleted and as yet no one else is?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/08/2021 21:18

I think we'll wait a long time for that!

ArabellaScott · 10/08/2021 21:16

Dean of the Faculty Of Advocates agrees with MN women, by the way.

'Rape crisis does amazing work. And I do not have their expertise or knowledge. But in my respectful view, there is nothing “bigoted” in a victim of sexual violence wishing a say on whomsoever is to provide counselling at what must be a horrendously traumatic time.'

mobile.twitter.com/RoddyQC/status/1425086901258706954?fbclid=IwAR16m1c0hyu-e9q8uAy-TAK5jNFmLppWR8lopkASdqTT_EmvpOaPe-wU8mw

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2021 21:14

It's not about that though is it? It's the comments made about reframing trauma. But it's convenient for you to pretend otherwise.

It is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2021 21:14

If that claim is a lie or unproven assumption it should be retracted or deleted.

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2021 21:13

@ClaraMumsnet can I ask why your post says 'trans rights moderation policy' when the title of the document you linked to is 'Mumsnet moderation principles for discussions around gender identity and sex'? If there is a 'trans rights' moderation policy, where is the corresponding 'women's rights' policy?

Also, a poster on this thread has used the word 'cultish' to refer to GC beliefs. I have seen many women's posts deleted for using the word cult or cultish in respect to gender ideology. Why has this apparent breach of the rules been allowed to stand?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/08/2021 21:13

Interesting account of a meeting with MW posted on the other thread virginiasroom.co.uk/f/on-validation-and-tolerance

Sexnotgender · 10/08/2021 21:11

@CatherinaJTV

Nothing you say helps young women who have been raped. The recent anti-trans protest action to flood Rape Crisis Scotland line with vexatious calls will have actually prevented rape victims from getting help.
Which action was that? Not seen anyone suggesting that.
Doyoumind · 10/08/2021 21:10

@CatherinaJTV

In any case - I've gone and donated to Edinburgh Rape Crisis and I see that many others have too, so maybe there's something good yet to come from your preoccupation with a trans woman's GRC.
It's not about that though is it? It's the comments made about reframing trauma. But it's convenient for you to pretend otherwise.
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