Have feminists brought this upon themselves?

I often find a hard stare at a man trying out a bit of intellectual wanking on a matter he's a smug observer of other people's struggles in, and a rephrasing to So you're saying if women hadn't tried to get out of their box, men wouldn't have been forced to punish them? Which is essentially the whole If you didn't provoke me I wouldn't have to hit you, line beloved of male abusers isn't it? Usually shuts them up fairly fast.

This total mess has exposed that most people, male and female, believe at gut level and enact in daily life that male people are more valuable, more important, to be prioritised, and female people are to provide service. Which is why we have incels now openly trying to state that lesbian women must 'learn to cope' with sex with males and not 'selfishly prioritise their orgasms' when male people have needs that they should be meeting. It's medieval.

However more and more ordinary women, not academics, those who never would have called themselves feminists, are getting increasingly angry and resistant, and grassroots women's movements are swelling up in ways they haven't in decades if not over a century. This will end in forcing recognition of women's rights that this time will not be a mere band aid. It's just going to be hell while women gather in sufficient numbers and get angry enough to force the point that no, actually does mean no.

The one I can't get over is Margaret Atwood being so TWAW. Her best known books are rooted in female biology. Maybe she saw how Germaine Greer got cancelled. It's depressing.

Feminists that I know, and I, have been kicking back and fighting against, broadly, 2 things.

1. not being artificially held back because of our sex - which translates simply to equal opportunity. In my lifetime (in my 60s) we have made a good deal of progress, it has been (too) slow and isn't close to being perfect but it is a lot better in so many respects than it was even 30 years ago.

2. Fighting against gender norms - gender is a social construct. This relates to point 1: if a girl wants to be a welder, that shouldn't be dismissed with "that's for boys". Likewise wearing trousers, having short hair and being assertive (not bossy). Alongside that, of course, we have tried to stamp on "boys don't cry" and campaigned (and still do) for men to have entitlements to, for eg, equal parental leave.

It has been about "invading men's spaces" only as far as: all spaces have historically been for men - "invading" in their eyes, gaining parity in ours.

So no. We didn't bring anything on ourselves. I'm not a TERF, I'm not GC. I'm trans inclusive and what I really want to see is a way of moving forward that doesn't create only winners and losers, but there are some very hard choices to be made and there will always be complainers and people who genuinely may sometimes have to give, where other times they don't.

Men,IMO, aren't involved outside of being supportive and not throwing themselves into something that isn't really their business.

I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools

Completely agree and I think boys would be more supportive and girls less eager to be kind and give away rights

Gender critical and feminist are not the same thing.

I strongly disagree. I think gender criticism - criticism of stereotypical gender roles - is fundamental to feminism.

However, many people who want single sex spaces are not gender critical, and it's possible to be critical of gender and not have strong feelings about single sex spaces. Logically I think it's difficult to argue that the law shouldn't protect some single sex spaces, but people have different levels of personal comfort and draw the line in different places. Many people who want single sex spaces for faith reasons would not self describe as feminists.

I don't know whether Posie Parker is gender critical. She does clearly have strong feelings about single sex spaces.

There is a type of man who thinks the height of humour is "equal rights, equal lefts" I.e. women want equality so now we're allowed to beat them up.

There is no point engaging with this man, you won't change their mind and they will enjoy playing devil's advocate as to whether you should have basic rights. You'd be best spending your time doing pretty much anything else.

[quote FindTheTruth]@wellbehavedwomen an outstanding post ❤️ that could help every teenager to understand the history

I'm saving this to share with others.[/quote]
I've said before that feminism should be taught in schools.

At the time, I though it useful to give boys the context in which women and girls have had to fight against sexism.

But it's become fairly evident that there are awful lot of young women who don't realise how recently we have won these rights too. And how precarious they are.

It's understandable, I know. Every generation takes what they have for granted. I did, we all do. When you're young ten years ago seems like ancient history. When you're older, it's the age of half your wardrobe.

some leading lights in the gender critical movement such as Posie Parker no longer call themselves feminists
Posie posted here "before she was famous" and never called herself a feminist. In fact IIRC she rejected that label.

Gender critical and feminist are not the same thing.

@wellbehavedwomen an outstanding post ❤️ that could help every teenager to understand the history

I'm saving this to share with others.

For what it’s worth I think modern feminism did logically lead to the modern trans rights movement

Can you explain how?

It's my understanding that Press for Change, and the Beaumont Society (an organisation for cross dressing men and their wives), were behind the UK push for transgenderism to be accepted legally. Decades ago.

And that in countries like America where healthcare is commercial, pharmaceutical companies will benefit from the medicalisation associated with transgenderism.

What part of feminism leads homosexual men with gender dysphoria and autogynephiles to seek validation and extra civil rights?

I remember my MIL telling me that she tried to buy a bike to enable her to cycle to work as a teacher. She earned her own money, but they refused to allow her hire purchase without her husband’s permission.

“ There was nothing stopping women from forming women only golf clubs, working women's clubs etc - they just chose not to - or there wasn't sufficient of women to make it viable.”

Women’s golf clubs and clubs do exist, they are very few and now often allow transwomen.
The real issue with single sex male clubs is that they are where power is concentrated. A women’s club can’t hope to replicate that.

Ever wondered what the female equivalent of Eton College is?
There isn’t one.
A very wealthy school that, for centuries, has trained many of the leaders of our country - and women do not have access.
Even girls’ education in this country is still so unequal and unfair.

Maybe we should believe less and think more.

Did anything in the writings of Karl Marx lead to the red terror in 20th century Stalinist Russia or the cultural revolution in China?

Depends who you ask. Every communist I’ve ever met assures me Stalinism had absolutely nothing to do with Marxism and that real communism hasn’t even been tried yet? Everyone else who knows anything about it however tells me that bad ideas in the communist manifesto got taken to their logical conclusion in the real world producing unintended consequences. Who to believe?

For what it’s worth I think modern feminism did logically lead to the modern trans rights movement and that it is telling that some leading lights in the gender critical movement such as Posie Parker no longer call themselves feminists.

I am not comparing feminism or trans rights to communism or anything else that happened in the 20th century. I’m just saying that ideas getting first accepted and then taken to their logical conclusions with unintended consequences and unintended results seems to be something that happens again and again. How well do we really think an idea through before we accept it? Maybe we should be

1982 Women can’t be refused service in pubs

Up until 1982, it was perfectly legal to refuse to serve women in British pubs, which were traditionally “male environments”.

Just for the likes of felix. Even normal bars excluded women.

I suppose they could always have bought their own pubs. Oh no wait, they couldn't get a mortgage without the signature of a man.

[quote Waitwhat23]@datun 1982. There had to be a court case! www.stylist.co.uk/visible-women/law-lawyer-feminism-today-history-gender-pay-gap-abortion-equality/188525[/quote]
It's extraordinary, isn't it!

1991 Rape within marriage becomes a crime

Before this date, it was legal for a man to rape his wife because he had “conjugal rights”. It took another decade after this ruling for the word “consent” to finally be given a legal definition, under the 2003 Sexual Offences Act.

Little wonder that the concept of consent doesn't seem to have impacted on the minds of many men. They would have grown up in era where it was meaningless.

Although laws change, it takes a lot longer to change attitudes.

Look at the number of men who absolutely consider sex from a partner as their 'right'.

But when I’m arguing I find it hard to say stuff like that cos it sounds so strong. That's part of the social training you had from early childhood.

It is also oe of the tinigs that sme men identify as 'proof' that some women are getting their just desserts. We get stronger, they describe it as aggressive and feel entitled to shove back!

@datun 1982. There had to be a court case! www.stylist.co.uk/visible-women/law-lawyer-feminism-today-history-gender-pay-gap-abortion-equality/188525

Place marking OP for my own learning. I also wish I had a MN earpiece.

Unfortunately this is the kind of thread that brings a certain kind of lurker out of the woodwork
Personally if a man said that to me I'd make a mental note that he wasn't "my kind of person" and engage with him as little as possible. I'd assume he'd been hanging around on manosphere type websites and got some very troubling attitudes, and also that he wasn't all that bright.

Unfortunately you can't argue with stupid, you definitely shouldn't be feeling like you are the stupid one for not immediately knowing how to rebut such idiocy.

[quote Waitwhat23]**@wellbehavedwomen* excellent post. I can to a certain extent understand that not everyone is aware that some of the more recent changes (rape within marriage being legal until the 1990's for example) were* so recent because it seems so outlandish but some people seem to be determined to deny that women as a group have ever experienced oppression because of their sex class.[/quote]
I believe it was only in the 1980s that a pub landlord could, quite legitimately, refuse to serve women on the basis of the fact that they were women.

Certainly, when I was much younger, I was aware that people slightly older than me did sometimes frown on women drinking in pubs and bars, especially alone. If you were to meet a boyfriend, you waited outside until he showed up.

It was only when I discovered feminism, that I realised that it was all part of the same system of sexism that was entirely deliberate.

@wellbehavedwomen excellent post. I can to a certain extent understand that not everyone is aware that some of the more recent changes (rape within marriage being legal until the 1990's for example) were so recent because it seems so outlandish but some people seem to be determined to deny that women as a group have ever experienced oppression because of their sex class.

their joy in the chilling effect of being able to scream 'bigot!' at women fighting to retain their rights

There's a special place for men enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.