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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Have feminists brought this upon themselves?

302 replies

Lessthanaballpark · 09/08/2021 20:40

I’ve heard this opinion so much lately, mostly amongst men who seem to be enjoying the struggle between feminism and trans-activism and the threat to women’s rights.

The opinion is that feminists have been attacking male spaces for years and now are getting their comeuppance.

Or that we’ve created the language of inclusion and gender that has led to this.

It’s a mean spirited attitude for sure. But is there any truth to it? Has feminism hoisted itself with its own petard?

OP posts:
Snoozysnoozy · 11/08/2021 11:33

aliasundercover

I was going to try and write something similar. It's the tactics and strategy that are similar. In particular the "stay in your lane" argument. Throw in some cancel culture and all of a sudden certain people won't make waves or will go along with it.

Artichokeleaves · 11/08/2021 11:30

I have seen many, many TRA's on here insist that human beings as a species can literally change sex and that saying that this isn't a biological reality is transphobic.

I've known people explain to me that transubstantiation literally happens during mass, that hell literally exists and that interpreting history and the bible any other way is evil and I shall be damned because of it. I've also known people who strongly believe that the moon landings were faked, and that if they do not spit at the sight of magpies bad luck will follow them.

It's a free country with multi faiths, multi cultures and multi beliefs. The boundary is trying to forcibly evangelise and harass others for not sharing and performing your personal beliefs.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2021 11:10

I have seen many, many TRA's on here insist that human beings as a species can literally change sex and that saying that this isn't a biological reality is transphobic.

Human beings are not clownfish?

Sounds like an inspired time for a music break...

alkanet · 11/08/2021 11:09

Quite Quentin!

I love that book. Dh & I were discussing it the other night, he hadn't realised that everything is based on his body type, not mine; and that things might prove more complicated for me because of that.

The physicality of being a small woman in a world built for men is not just inconvenient, ie. Can't reach the top shelf at the supermarket. It also has H&S implications. Car seatbelts cross my throat not my shoulder. Welding gauntlets drop off & don't ask about the price of safety boots in my "abnormal" shoe size .

That may come across as a bit of a moan, I just adapt & get on with stuff. But I get the feeling most women are forced to adapt to a world not made for us.

aliasundercover · 11/08/2021 11:08

I bought it for my Dad but he couldn't deal with it - he said it was "relentless" and too much. Try living it, I said

Brilliant. Did you get a reply?

I think there is a way in which not feminists but many activists have ‘brought this upon themselves’. There has been a fashion over the last decade or so for statements along the lines of eg: “if you’re not gay you don’t get an opinion - gay people decide what homophobia is”,
; or “white people don’t get to define racism, black people do”; or “men don’t get to tell women what sexism is”, etc.
I think most people kind of believed - or at least accepted, or decided not to argue - with this type of statement, and it’s brought us to a place where trans activists are claiming only transpeople get to define ‘transphobia’. People are used to going along with this type of claim, so many (especially white heterosexual males) have just shrugged and agreed without realising what these definitions are.
So now we have trans activists saying ‘transwomen are women’ and while most people find this laughable they have been trained to accept it’s not their business.

I usually get shot down pretty quickly here on MN when I write about this sort of stuff, and it usually turns out I’m wrong, so feel free to fire away :). I’ll get back to making bad puns and weak one liners.

OldCrone · 11/08/2021 11:07

@Brefugee

I'm interested to know what you think 'GC' means

Possibly I have misunderstood the meaning? I do believe TWAW - but I also believe that there is a need for sex-segregated spaces too.

Can you clarify what you mean here?

When you say you believe TWAW, does that mean that you think their sex has changed and they should be included in single sex spaces for women?

Or are you saying that TW should be excluded from such spaces? (This means you are contradicting yourself because this exclusion means you don't believe that TWAW.)

Theeyeballsinthesky · 11/08/2021 11:02

Before I really realised what believing TWAW meant, I thought it was just about being kind, using female names & pronouns and not pointing out that they were obviously still male despite how they presented.

I didn’t understand then that I was expected to believe TW were actual literal women and entitled to be treated as a woman 100% no matter what

Once I understood that, and that any disagreement with anything meant you were transphobic, I very quickly realised that there was no way I could sustain TWAW

WoodenFloors · 11/08/2021 10:55

Possibly I have misunderstood the meaning? I do believe TWAW - but I also believe that there is a need for sex-segregated spaces too

How can you hold the position that TWAW and TWANW simultaneously?

If you believe TWAW, then why would they be excluded ever? If you believe that TWANW, then why would you ever assert that they were?

I mean, why would we exclude any women from things designed for women?

You wither believe that they are women, like every other woman, or you don't.

Waitwhat23 · 11/08/2021 10:53

The insistence that TWAW has not, as many people think, been about social courtesy and respecting pronoun preferences and such like which is why I think we see statements like 'TWAW but I believe in single sex spaces' but instead been the conflation and replacement of sex with gender. I have seen many, many TRA's on here insist that human beings as a species can literally change sex and that saying that this isn't a biological reality is transphobic.

I'm perfectly happy to respect pronouns etc in the majority of cases (sexual offenders being an exception) but I'm not prepared to be compelled to believe in something which is not true (hunan beings changing sex).

Helleofabore · 11/08/2021 10:51

Possibly I have misunderstood the meaning? I do believe TWAW - but I also believe that there is a need for sex-segregated spaces too.

If you understand the need for sex-segregated spaces, do you also carry that across to all aspects of when sex matters and needs to be acknowledged.

For instance:

  • males being allowed to participate in female sport despite even the OIC now acknowledging that male puberty conveys benefits that are not decreased to allow fair competition?
  • males taking Women's Officer roles because they identify as women and therefore have influence over policies being set, events and many aspects of women's needs in that organisation. Do you believe that a male (who may have transitioned only six to twelve months previously as has been the case in a few instances so far) will be the best advocate for ALL females in that organisation.

This is just two different applications of TW AW that to my mind highlight conflicts in women's rights and protections against discrimination. Are you comfortable in these instances that males are women?

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 11/08/2021 10:48

Yeah quentin

Some of it is jaw dropping…like the boxing head gear thing

Im not fussed about the olympics but its given me plenty of conversational gambits

QuentinBunbury · 11/08/2021 10:37

I bought it for my Dad but he couldn't deal with it - he said it was "relentless" and too much. Try living it, I said

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 11/08/2021 10:10

felix

Its actually a very interesting book, well worth a read

Felix125 · 11/08/2021 10:04

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Not sure Felix is going to come back to that one!

I hope that the prolonged silence is because Felix is doing some reading, or maybe having tea, rather than ignoring some inconvenent facts.

I would like Felix to have been posting in good faith.

I am heartily tired of bad faith posters.

Come back Felix!

Sorry - I was at work last night and did not finish till after 3am. Taking the kids out today and working again tonight

I will catch up on this thread and read the posts as I am interested in conversation. I have only got as far as this post so far!

The post above about the military death rate compared to birth death rates - just to clarify that it was not me that brought this up - i merely commented on it.

And I'll try and get a copy of the book

merrymouse · 11/08/2021 09:09

If you believe 'TWAW' you aren't gender critical.

I don't understand any of the logic behind 'TWAW', because I don't understand the purpose of the word 'women' when used in that phrase. However, that is a whole other thread!

Brefugee · 11/08/2021 08:59

I'm interested to know what you think 'GC' means

Possibly I have misunderstood the meaning? I do believe TWAW - but I also believe that there is a need for sex-segregated spaces too.

merrymouse · 11/08/2021 08:19

Sorry, 'Society's expectations'.

merrymouse · 11/08/2021 08:18

I am not GC

I'm interested to know what you think 'GC' means, because to me the opposite of 'GC' is "believes that societies expectations of how a man and woman should behave are correct".

Brefugee · 11/08/2021 07:01

Please recognise that we live within a society that is, presently, reversing, even as the younger members complacently congratulate themselves on how much things are improving, because they can navel-gaze in a virtual environment even as rights are erased in the material world.

Statistics not being disaggregated by sex is dangerous for women. Very very recent example and it's going to be interesting to see if the sport's authorities are going to act. You may have noticed that in the Olympic boxing (Amateur only) the men don't wear headgear but the women do.

They (all amateur boxers) started wearing headgear because it was thought to be added protection. Statistics have now shown that far from added protection, they are in fact, more dangerous and boxers are more likely to suffer concussion wearing one than not. As a result of these studies and statistics the men are not allowed to wear "protective" headgear in the ring. But they only studied male statistics and so despite the doubts about headgear women boxers are required to wear them because nobody bothered to see how or if the results are the same with women as with men.

Women are invisible. But the minute we make the tiniest bit of noise about having our concerns addessed* we are told that we're putting people's backs up.

I am angry and i will stay angry and i don't care who thinks that's uncomfortable for men. I am beyond pandering to men way way more than they are even giving me a modicum of consideration.

*again: for the removal of doubt. I am not GC. But i do think we need to work together to make the future safer for everyone.

Aparallaxia · 11/08/2021 02:22

I'm not sure where the comparision between battlefield mortality and childbirth-related mortality came from (well, there's Euripides' Medea: 'I would rather stand three times in the line of battle than bear a single child') but I am finding it odd that the modern mortality rate related to expectant and new mothers [new-born infants haven't been mentioned, I think], including Black women, turns out to be low relative to... men going out and getting killed in war, where one crucial aim is to, you know, kill as many of the other side as possible (or render them unable to fight back).

No-one will deny that war has always taken its highest toll on young men. The casualty numbers in WW1 in particular are terrifying. But we have to consider that, until comparatively recently, conscription wasn't a Thing. Centralized control over nation-states of a kind to make conscription possible wasn't even achieved until the mid-late 19th c.; a state has to be equipped with a massive bureaucracy and a police service or standing army to enforce its rules easily in order to build a conscript army. The changes (massive industrialization imprimis) that transformed wars into wars of technology and GDP both exploited and helped create ever-increasing bureaucratization (and eventually the Hollerith Company's [i.e. IBM] punch-card system made it possible for the Nazis to identify, locate, and round up Jews and other "undesirables" easily).

For centuries before that, in contrast, military service was largely a choice (with exceptions, I know: press-gangs etc.). If service was expected, it was often accepted gladly, as appropriate to one's status (those upper-class young men going into the Guards); even earlier it already came with one's social position (e.g. feudal responsibilities to fight or provide soliders for one's lord). Nowadays the US armed forces have to outsource so much to what are basically mercenaries in part precisely because it's a volunteer service, and the last time conscription was used it didn't go so well. And mortality is so low compared to, say, the Civil War because of advances in battle-field care and in subsequent medical care—medical care that doesn't necessarily extend to pregnant women: There is no doubt that in the US at least Black and other minority women receive less and less good ante- and post-natal care than do whites and Asian-origin women:

www.ywboston.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/FACT_SHEET_MATERNAL_HEALTH_AND_WOMEN_

There are plenty of female soldiers, sailors, and airforce personnel now, of course, who have had a fight on their hands to be allowed to go into battle; but the history of warfare is peppered by their presence, usually in support rôles—not just cooking and cleaning for them (and the children who also had a place in the "baggage train"), but bringing the ammunition to the guns, cleaning weapons, and often, especially after medium- and long-range artillery became common, running much the same risks as the soldiers and sailors they assisted. Unlike their Russian counterparts, women pilots in the UK were allowed only to move aircraft between airfields; they weren't "safe" by choice. Women in the UK in WW1 and WW2 volunteered or were conscripted to work in steelyards and armament factories, doing the same jobs as men, for less pay, even during the Blitz... and then got chucked out as soon as the men came home.

Childbirth, of course, has never been a choice for women (with the tiniest of exceptions for Serbian sworn virgins, Roman Vestal Virgins, etc.). It still isn't, for millions of women around the world. From the WHO:
'The World Health Organization estimates that more than 300,000 women died from pregnancy-related causes in 2015 [This is down from over 500k in 1990.]. That’s 830 women every day.

'In the chart here we see global maternal deaths by region. Two-thirds – 201,000 – occurred in Sub-Saharan Africa. 22% – 66,000 – occurred in South Asia.

'This is partly attributed to the fact that many more babies are born in Asia and Africa than in other regions. But it is also largely the result of the much higher maternal mortality rates found in lower-income countries. Per birth, a woman in Nigeria is more than 200 times more likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth than a woman in Sweden.''

Aparallaxia · 10/08/2021 23:40

wellbehavedwomen Brilliant response, thank you. Everything I wanted to say in reply, and a lot more too. The ignorance around women's legal position and of the causes/effects thereof in society, economics, and politics, is astounding sometimes.

Chickenyhead · 10/08/2021 23:21

Having read the thread, the answer to the OP is no.

BrozTito · 10/08/2021 23:05

There were very, very few women tank crews and theres no evidence the rape of berlin spread to red army women. And as i said in my last post, ussr was the 1st in the world with a female minister, to legalise abortion and beat britain with political rights for women. Its not simply progressive compared to tsarism, but the whole world circa 1917. It gets tedious talking about soviet history through the prism of morality and cold war propaganda. We all know it was an awful regime, that doesnt mean there wernt good aspects or interesting aspects in the sphere of women's rights.

Waitwhat23 · 10/08/2021 22:55

@wellbehavedwoman another superb post. And yes, the level of open hostility towards women which is currently seemingly acceptable within society is breathtakingly awful. Throughout my life it has always felt like women were making advances and now it feels like it's all slipping backwards.

wellbehavedwomen · 10/08/2021 22:42

Edit:

This isn't the age-old problem where there are blurred lines on consent.

should read

This isn't the age-old problem for a criminal jury whenever there are blurred lines on the truth about consent.

Typing while attending to children - never great for clarity; this, however, is a case where I think such clarity is vital. Apologies for the need to edit.