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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I’m confused: ‘The Spark Company’

60 replies

OhDear2200 · 08/08/2021 22:13

The Spark Company keeps popping up on my Facebook feed so thought I would have a look. Found lots of posts interesting until I got to a post about how their feminism includes trans women as they are women.

This is within many posts about women rising against the patriarchy.

I’m confused. Do trans women suffer from the patriarchy being biologically men?

Can transwomen suffer from sexism?

This is a genuine question I’m worried I’m being naive. I don’t want anyone (however they identify) to suffer discrimination or abuse. But I can’t help feeling (possibly irrationally) a bit peeved that trans women get to claim to be on the receiving end of the ‘patriarchy’.

Apparently this is progressive feminism.

Am I backwards?

OP posts:
Chickenyhead · 10/08/2021 02:40

YOU DO NOT HAVE THE CHOICE OF THE WOMEN'S BATHROOM.

You just take it. Abuse their fear of you.

Chickenyhead · 10/08/2021 02:37

As a male by sex, you may be unaware that men by sex commit 98% of sex offences in the UK, of which 90% are by male bodied people on women by sex.

25% of women by sex or 12% of the population have been raped. And at least 65% have been sexually assaulted.

As a male bodied person, women are intimidated by you. Do you like that?

Aparallaxia · 10/08/2021 02:37

lexxi87 This is a really difficult issue as you are clearly in physical danger and distress, which is wrong and unjust, and obviously no-one on MN wishes you personally ill. But equally this is not a helpline or a charity: we are here to discuss female problems and perspectives generally. We look at the issue of trans rights primarily for how it affects biological women, who form a special group because of our physical vulnerability and our reproductive role.

This combination is something transwomen cannot share, even though many transwomen also experience male violence, including sexual violence, for violating traditional masculine norms about appearance and behaviour—the violence you yourself have been suffering. That treatment comes from men, not women, and women should not be expected to "make it better". Instead, we think that transmen and transwomen ought to campaign for safe spaces for themselves, separate from men's and women's spaces. The dangers you face are ones women have been facing since forever. We, too, walk in fear. We avoid certain places at certain times. We always have to stay alert. Have our house keys ready. Wear sensible shoes so we can run like hell. This fear is men's doing. You should be working to stop it, not expecting women to do it for you.

As for your appearance, does it really matter, when going to the hospital, what you look like? Doesn't your biological identity matter far, far more, as has already been pointed? The NHS will treat you as a person: it doesn't matter if you wear make-up and jewellery, not in such an environment! I know, I've been there, I've been in an ER at 2am looking like I've just been dragged through a hedge backwards. The nurses and doctors were wonderful and couldn't care less what I looked like.

I don't know you, of course, and you may reject what I'm going to say, but here it is: I think your obsession with your appearance is killing you. Almost literally. Women have learned slowly & painfully that this obsession is something foisted on us from outside—from other people's expectations that we have internalized and regurgitated. To me, it sounds as though you have internalized a certain directive about what it means to be a woman, and this amounts to looking a certain way. Can't you see that this is, well, crazy? Being a woman is a matter of biology. Being feminine is something else entirely. It's a matter of cultural norms and expectations, ones women have been induced or forced to adopt and men forced or induced to reject. I think—and I know it's presumptuous of me to say this—that what you want or need is to be feminine, not female. And if you choose to do that, then more power to your elbow. It is something achievable. Being a woman just isn't. But it may save your life.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 02:36

Allowing men into female spaces allows men who are fully functioning into those spaces. The same men you worry about in men's toilets and additional onesbasically rapists can follow you into women's toilets as they tag onto your selfID needs, but with your size advantage and male appendage they are not after you, they want access to a woman.
That's why sex based rights are a legal requirement. Women are smaller and have vaginas.

lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 02:36

@Chickenyhead

I was completely unprepared for it and got caught out a lot. I'm lucky I've not been seriously injured as a result and learnt those lessons quickly but I've experienced enough to get a taste of how that feels for women and understand that worry with me being in bathrooms.

As it stands i can't change the world, i have two choices, the men's bathroom or the women's bathroom. The risk calculation is obvious which is why i put so much effort into being presentable, looks matter even if it means not going to hospital I'll take that hit.

I scan peoples body language all the time for threats and even though women's bathrooms are the safest place i still look to see if anyone reacts uncomfortably to me (i get they might not say something to my face). So far I've not noticed anything, either they're good at hiding it as soon as they see me or they don't really care, and of course people who are lovely to me and want to chat etc... obviously don't have a problem.

But yeah, i get it, but you understand why I'm not throwing myself into a rape pit in the men's bathroom, and it's not just that but it's people attacking me because they're transphobic, and people attacking me because they're attracted to me as well (toxic masc guy nonsense ffs), since I've worked on my appearance women have been great to me, helped me out when i'm getting abuse and don't seem uncomfortable interacting with me anymore.

Chickenyhead · 10/08/2021 02:33

Transwomen offend at the same rate as all biological males. There is a parliamentary report on it. Please Google it.

Males by sex do not belong in women's safe spaces. Your ability to get an erection is irrelevant. As a male bodied person using women's safe and private spaces, you are making clear your contempt for women by sex.

MiladyBerserko · 10/08/2021 02:30

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lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 02:28

@Enough4me

You know my testosterone level is 1.1 nmol/l and the female range is 0.35 - 2.60nmol/l . My T pre-meds was 20.4 nmol/l.. My sex drive is utterly shot and it's not i can't get it up kinda thing (that is a problem too) but i cannot get aroused, it's exceptionally difficult and masturbation is not an option anymore.

The only reason trans women in porn look like they can get hard is because they inject themselves with a drug called alprostadil (caverject) into the penis before shooting a scene, it forces an erection for 1-3 hours because viagra etc.. do not work.

We also court order the same meds i take voluntarily to be forced onto serial sex offenders and deem that enough to regard them as safe to be part of society again, because re-offending rates drop to almost zero, with re-offenders being people who don't take the meds properly (because the sexual stuff really sucks to them)

I'm not a rapist ffs and even if i wanted to I'm not penetrating anyone with my flaccid cock.

Chickenyhead · 10/08/2021 02:27

[quote lexxi87]@Enough4me

I used the men's bathroom for as long as i could before the trouble i was getting in there was too much and too often, it became a risk and one thing I've learnt from all the sexual assault I've had, not putting myself in a vulnerable position helps a lot, as well as not staying out late, being too drunk when i'm on my own, not walking around at night etc.... I started using the women's bathroom when it became too dangerous to use the men's and the response I've had from women seems to be that they either don't care or they're nice to me, again though that's down to looks and effort.[/quote]
I'm sorry you suffered abuse from male bodied people. I know how hard that is.

So I really don't understand why you force women by sex to suffer the same fear that you are so keen to escape by forcing yourself amongst the opposite sex in their safe spaces.

It is a huge double standard and it betrays your male privilege.

MiladyBerserko · 10/08/2021 02:22

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lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 02:19

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Enough4me · 10/08/2021 02:14

For example, additional sports scholarships could be set up for TW, as otherwise all women's scholarships potentially become TW scholarships due to testosterone advantage. Separate scholarships mean win-win, women keep their scholarships and TW have scholarships.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 02:11

I don't think the costs should prevent this from happening though. Many facilities could have a separate area nearby and it allows male, female and transitioning people all respect. Stonewall has the money and strength to push for additional facilities.

lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 02:08

@Enough4me

Aside from the impracticality and enormous drain of public resources that would cost and private businesses for compliance it would be a difficult thing to police and is not necessary. If I'm just going to get trolled all night then I'm signing off because it's a waste of time.

OurMamInHavianas · 10/08/2021 02:06

[quote lexxi87]@OurMamInHavianas

See my previous post, it touches on what you said. If i post something against the rules will my whole account get banned or will my single post just get removed?

If people are active i may as well ask if what i want to post is ok or not but will write it in a post by itself if i won't get banned outright as depending on your perspective it could be read as "how to kill off trans women" or something.[/quote]
I don’t understand your message.
The only posts on here that get deleted are ones that mention autogynephilia, which most people claiming to be TW have.
Women do not want to be unwilling participants in men’s paraphilias.

If men are hurting TW, take that up with men. Don’t push down on women just because we look like an easier target.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 02:05

Why can't TW be TW and request separate facilities (lavatories, sports, prisons etc.) women and men could support this and it would be fair?

lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 02:02

@Enough4me

Ok, I'm not here to debate that with you and I've heard it many times over, nothing i can say makes a difference and it's not a discussion I can be bothered to put time into yet again.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 02:00

If TW 'win' all biological women lose sex based rights. Then TW can never be women as even bio women aren't allowed to be women. That's the cycle TW don't understand. By taking away what women are, they lose what they wanted...
because it is never possible to genetically take every Y chromosome and change it to an X and never possible to reverse the male developmental changes.

lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 01:56

@OurMamInHavianas

See my previous post, it touches on what you said. If i post something against the rules will my whole account get banned or will my single post just get removed?

If people are active i may as well ask if what i want to post is ok or not but will write it in a post by itself if i won't get banned outright as depending on your perspective it could be read as "how to kill off trans women" or something.

OurMamInHavianas · 10/08/2021 01:54

[quote lexxi87]@Enough4me

I used the men's bathroom for as long as i could before the trouble i was getting in there was too much and too often, it became a risk and one thing I've learnt from all the sexual assault I've had, not putting myself in a vulnerable position helps a lot, as well as not staying out late, being too drunk when i'm on my own, not walking around at night etc.... I started using the women's bathroom when it became too dangerous to use the men's and the response I've had from women seems to be that they either don't care or they're nice to me, again though that's down to looks and effort.[/quote]
Many of us do care. And many of us are are frightened. We are nice to you because we are scared you will turn on us if we aren’t. That’s women’s socialisation.

Women are not a human shield.

OurMamInHavianas · 10/08/2021 01:51

[quote lexxi87]@OurMamInHavianas

I bother because without making an effort i get seen (and look like) a man, no chance would i walk into a womans bathroom or hospital looking like that and make people feel uncomfortable, making 100% effort is enough to make people take me seriously enough and know i'm not just a perv in a dress kinda thing.

In regards to medical treatment my birth sex is taken seriously where it's relevant and my gender identity is respected, my physical body does matter in healthcare and my feelings aren't hurt when for example i worry about a lump on my testicles or breasts and my GP or nurse does a check for me, when i get taken off the cervical screening program because... no cervix, everyone on the NHS has been exceptionally wonderful to me (trans healthcare is setup to hurt people but that's another convo) however, it's based on my appearance if i want to be taken seriously as trans or a woman.

I know if I'm having a drug overdose (i should be dead right now, by day 2 i accepted i was going to have a heart attack due to the symptoms) the hospital will help no matter what i look like, but i know my looks matter not just to me but to help people around me feel less uncomfortable, not going to hospital looks like a silly issue but will probably kill me at some point and i don't have a way to work around it due to not being able to fund surgery, losing my job because of this and being signed off work as a result, I'm so lucky to have benefits to pay the rent but won't ever be better, i also wanted to post on here to try and leverage the passion here to help me and others with something important but i think i will probably get banned for posting it.[/quote]
Your pelvis angle, so the way you walk, will immediately give you away as being a man. As well as many other features. Women are aware from an early age who is a man. Men tend to be less aware and just seem to look at tits and hair.

Please do not use women’s toilets (bathrooms, to you). Women in there will know you are a man and some will be frightened.

Many women will support you in campaigning for a third space if you want one. Otherwise, you can use the facilities designed for your sex.

lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 01:51

@Enough4me

I used the men's bathroom for as long as i could before the trouble i was getting in there was too much and too often, it became a risk and one thing I've learnt from all the sexual assault I've had, not putting myself in a vulnerable position helps a lot, as well as not staying out late, being too drunk when i'm on my own, not walking around at night etc.... I started using the women's bathroom when it became too dangerous to use the men's and the response I've had from women seems to be that they either don't care or they're nice to me, again though that's down to looks and effort.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 01:46

When did science die?

People who look like men use the men's lavatory as that suits their anatomy. The separation in lavatories is due to sex variation.

lexxi87 · 10/08/2021 01:40

@OurMamInHavianas

I bother because without making an effort i get seen (and look like) a man, no chance would i walk into a womans bathroom or hospital looking like that and make people feel uncomfortable, making 100% effort is enough to make people take me seriously enough and know i'm not just a perv in a dress kinda thing.

In regards to medical treatment my birth sex is taken seriously where it's relevant and my gender identity is respected, my physical body does matter in healthcare and my feelings aren't hurt when for example i worry about a lump on my testicles or breasts and my GP or nurse does a check for me, when i get taken off the cervical screening program because... no cervix, everyone on the NHS has been exceptionally wonderful to me (trans healthcare is setup to hurt people but that's another convo) however, it's based on my appearance if i want to be taken seriously as trans or a woman.

I know if I'm having a drug overdose (i should be dead right now, by day 2 i accepted i was going to have a heart attack due to the symptoms) the hospital will help no matter what i look like, but i know my looks matter not just to me but to help people around me feel less uncomfortable, not going to hospital looks like a silly issue but will probably kill me at some point and i don't have a way to work around it due to not being able to fund surgery, losing my job because of this and being signed off work as a result, I'm so lucky to have benefits to pay the rent but won't ever be better, i also wanted to post on here to try and leverage the passion here to help me and others with something important but i think i will probably get banned for posting it.

Enough4me · 10/08/2021 01:31

Transwomen are transwomen. Women are women.

When we can agree on straight facts like that it's then easier to debate the wider picture. When 'women' means a mix of female and male it's clear as mud and debate stalls.

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