I think I’m going mad….

Always the segue into another issue like racism. Because deep down, they know their argument doesn't stand on it's own merits.

One which rather illustrates some of the many points made in the long-read article.

Sorry, let me correct myself.

"Here's why people should be free to enthusiastically discuss racial IQs"

And I mean, what's the difference? You want to encourage discussion of "controversial" subjects even if they are harmful, right?

Apologies to teenagers everywhere for my last comment. Most I know are more than capable of reading R0wantree's post and unpicking the issues without making allegations of condoning racism.

That's a lot of words for "here's why people should be allowed to use racial slurs".

It’s just this one topic it seems. And having an 18 and 15 year old it seems this is the way they all think now. They don’t listen to other people’s views, can’t disagree with anyone else without being derisive. Young people seem to think they have to all agree on everything all they can’t like someone at all, or have to ‘correct’ their thinking.

It is a serious situation, one that requires adults to help nurture critical thinking, resilience and emotional regulation better in children and young people.

Atlantic
'THE CODDLING OF THE AMERICAN MIND
In the name of emotional well-being, college students are increasingly demanding protection from words and ideas they don’t like. Here’s why that’s disastrous for education—and mental health.'

By Greg Lukianoff and Jonathan Haidt
SEPTEMBER 2015 ISSUE

(extract)
"The press has typically described these developments as a resurgence of political correctness. That’s partly right, although there are important differences between what’s happening now and what happened in the 1980s and ’90s. That movement sought to restrict speech (specifically hate speech aimed at marginalized groups), but it also challenged the literary, philosophical, and historical canon, seeking to widen it by including more-diverse perspectives. The current movement is largely about emotional well-being. More than the last, it presumes an extraordinary fragility of the collegiate psyche, and therefore elevates the goal of protecting students from psychological harm. The ultimate aim, it seems, is to turn campuses into “safe spaces” where young adults are shielded from words and ideas that make some uncomfortable. And more than the last, this movement seeks to punish anyone who interferes with that aim, even accidentally. You might call this impulse vindictive protectiveness. It is creating a culture in which everyone must think twice before speaking up, lest they face charges of insensitivity, aggression, or worse. (continues)

There’s a saying common in education circles: Don’t teach students what to think; teach them how to think. The idea goes back at least as far as Socrates. Today, what we call the Socratic method is a way of teaching that fosters critical thinking, in part by encouraging students to question their own unexamined beliefs, as well as the received wisdom of those around them. Such questioning sometimes leads to discomfort, and even to anger, on the way to understanding.

But vindictive protectiveness teaches students to think in a very different way. It prepares them poorly for professional life, which often demands intellectual engagement with people and ideas one might find uncongenial or wrong. The harm may be more immediate, too. A campus culture devoted to policing speech and punishing speakers is likely to engender patterns of thought that are surprisingly similar to those long identified by cognitive behavioral therapists as causes of depression and anxiety. The new protectiveness may be teaching students to think pathologically."
(continues)
www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

Yep, it's the respect thing. My mum's political opinions differ from mine and that's fine. We don't bring it up, she can make her own mind up, and as she is my mother I have some fucking respect for her.

Even as a teenager, I wouldn't have dared call her uninformed, wrong, a bigot for having a difference of opinion to me. I wouldn't have gone into her private life to find stuff to attack her with!

Don't rise to it. Don't even give them the chance OP. Withering look, "I thought WE agreed not to discuss this" and leave the room.

If they persist I'd withdraw from every service they expect of you. They can cook their own dinner, do their own washing, no lifts anywhere etc. Don't pay their phone bills (if you do) Tell them they can disagree with you all they want but if they think they can gang up on you and talk to you like that you have more self respect than to do stuff they're old enough to do themselves. You aren't there to wipe their bums while they treat you like crap.

Your husband is also a dick for a) allowing them to talk to you like this and b) joining in

If you need further proof of this go and look at the responses JK Rowling got for a thoughtful and nuanced view. She received death and rape threat. I haven't seen any gender critical men receive even a fraction of the abuse.

Also racist women are often attacked with more vitriol than racist men and that is a form of sexism. We hold women to a higher standard than men because we expect women to shut up, pipe down and know their place.

Wrong or irrelevant.

@BluebirdsSong I think the poster was referring to the default assumption that women are always wrong, irrespective of their opinions. As a woman I've encountered this with a lot of men.

@Jorris
"Just a strong internal belief that they are right. And women are wrong."

Your views aren't correct simply by the virtue of being a woman. And you don't speak for women in general, as many women disagree with you on trans issues.

A racist woman wouldn't be more justified in her racism on account of being a woman.

They're being disrespectful and bullying.

I think I'd try to just block it. As soon as one of them starts to try to press that button, raise an eyebrow and say you thought they didn't want to talk about that (and if they persist, maybe 'why are you so obsessed?)

And I think I'd try to shift the focus firmly to women's rights. Don't try to get them to read Trans. I think might be a lot more productive to get something like Invisible Women. Talk about violence against women. Some people (especially youngsters and men, but some women too) will buy the 'most oppressed' story because they don't comprehend how sexism still affects women. Both misogyny and 'structural sexism'.

It's so important for them to understand those issues and harder to dismiss... why are you obsessed with women's rights .....

I’ve absolutely had enough of my family bringing up ‘mum’s views’ (which I’ve learnt to keep completely private from them due to previously accusations of bigotry’), and then when I say a single thing in response,, accusing me of being ‘obsessed’ with it and not keeping it to myself!

I feel like I’m going mad. Husband saying he doesn’t know why I’m so obsessed with trans matters and I should keep to myself - I do! I don’t want to share with them because they don’t agree and don’t want to hear it.
Ever since the first time I tried to bring up and got shot down my him and kids I decided I would never mention again and wait for them one day to find out for themselves and be peaked.

Recognising the specific patterns of controlling behaviours and the impact on those subjected to them, whether in the home, workplace or within online fora is vital. Not only to prevent further harm to self and others but in respect of children and young people this models how they may have their needs met whilst respecting other people's needs and appropriate boundaries.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Hi OP

I hope the derailing of this thread hasn't put you off from posting again.

There is lots of good advice on this thread already, but I just wanted to add my own perspective. Caveat: my children are not teenagers yet so I'll admit my lack of experience with this particular demographic!

It strikes me that your children and husband are disrespecting you in your own house by monitoring what you read and attacking you for your opinions. They don't see you as a 'full' person but rather as an extension of themselves and a facilitator of their needs. It's time for you to take back some control.

As others have said, make sure all your devices are password protected so they can't spy on you. Tell them to stay out of your phone and laptop. If you are reading any 'physical' books put them in your own room where they won't come across them. You deserve your privacy and it's wrong of them to invade it.

Secondly, avoid this topic like the plague unless you can be sure the conversation will remain civil. If they bring this up in a confrontational manner, then I would just refuse to engage. A non committal reply, a shrug or a simple 'ok then' is all you need to say. Do not allow them to call you names - if they call you a bigot, or hateful, just tell them that name calling won't be tolerated and that there will be consequences unless they apologise.

I believe that part of the reason they keep baiting you on this is because, deep down, they are not so sure of themselves. They have been told to believe something that goes against logic, reason and science, so they may be lashing out at you because they subconsciously agree with you. I think that is why this debate is so toxic and emotive - it's very hard to maintain cognitive dissonance without it taking a toll on you, and it's becoming harder for even the most committed activists to deny the evidence that people, particularly women, but also children, are being harmed by the consequences of self-ID.

Lastly, I think it's time for you to spend more time pursuing your own interests outside of the family home. Your children need to learn that you are person in your own right, with your own desires and wants, so make sure that if you don't already do this, you start spending more time out of the home doing your own thing, going out with your friends and having fun, instead of facilitating the lives of your husband and children. They are old enough not to need you to do everything for them.

What helped me grow up a lot when I was a teenager was when my mum, who had always been a stay at home mum, suddenly got a job outside of the home and started spending more time with her colleagues (previously she never really socialised much). It was at that moment that I started to see her as a different person and not just as my 'mum'.

This happened in our house with Brexit (I actually didn't particularly disagree with my DH on the issues but I got SO FED UP of every single conversation becoming a rant that I ended all related discussion of any kind). It got us pretty close to divorce!

Maybe you need ground rules. No politics in the kitchen. No commenting on what other people are reading. Etc.

Previous thread that analysed the consequences of our constructed "inner Beryls":

OP arranfan wrote, Fri 02-Nov-18:

"Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?"
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412053-Mumsnet-FWR-Guide-to-De-Programming-Yourself-From-Self-Harming-Kindness

Floral, you have expressed this much better than I. The point isn’t at all that I believe that they are representatives. The point is that their crimes are completely disregarded and some TRAs cannot admit that they are in the wrong.

This is why discussing those particular cases is a good way to end the #nodebate. and if my children (after having been horrid to me) would defended those particular cases I would take a certain pleasure in pushing them to elaborate and ask follow up questions

Superb advice for @Iootraw1 from @BatmansBat. asking questions and listening works with teenagers 👍

2 other thoughts

1. Your teenagers are showing you who they've become (at the moment) not because of anything you've done wrong, but because of dogma, social conditioning and the thought police at school, online and male rights activists pervading institutions across the country. They're surviving. They've been conditioned into EITHER / OR dogmatic thinking. These poor kids are being taught to hate their mothers. Taught to attack anyone who doesn't comply with 'John Money' philosophical beliefs. One suggestion is to point to trans men and women publicly challenging these beliefs. (there are plenty of them, if you need names)

2. Boundaries are about what YOU need to give yourself. They are not about changing your teenagers views but about you setting your boundaries and being clear about them. e.g. saying "if you do X then I will do Y". It's about meeting your needs, regardless of how your family behaves. Be clear about what you are going to do if they don't meet your expectations.

The point about Chan or Yaniv is not that they are representative of T people. It's that there are transactivists who are representative who will insist that women complying with the ideology's demands is more important that what these men have done.
(Brief, irritatingly necessary caveat to say that, as these men are bad, I am allowed to correctly sex them according to the general MNHQ zeitgeist, or have been before)

The crimes are almost irrelevant to TRAs. Your compliance is the focus. I don't quite know how to reach people whose moral compass is that fucked up, tbh.

Chan is a very complex case for reasons [as described by Glinner ]

That is of course true. As is Yaniv. And many other cases.

But there are pockets of TRAs who disagree with this. Many were supportive of Yaniv until quite recently. I have seen Twitter posts outraged that Chan has been misgendered and quite blasé about the fact that Chan used their penis to rape their 80 year old mother with dementia.

If I was having this discussion I would like to find common ground that some cases are unacceptable. Maybe Chan should not go to a women’s prison. Maybe Barbie Kardashian shouldn’t?

That makes it easier to have a more nuanced discussion. Everything isn’t black or white.

If the OP is still about I would recommend,

1. Make sure you have some privacy online, family members shouldn't be routinely checking your browsing history.

1. Don't try to hide your opinions, just repeat where your lines are. For me, I don't mind how anyone presents but I am not going to take part in the lie that it's possible to change sex. I am emailing, taking part in consultations etc to make my views heard.

1. Do get books or films like 1984 or about Maoist China or other authoritarian regimes. Encourage discussion with your children about what makes things true or the difference between respecting others' opinions and being forced to buy into them.

I don't think the approach of never mentioning the topic works as it encourages an unhealthy dynamic.

I think Robin pops onto an FWR thread when Robin is having an existential doubt moment on account of being the legal bod defending Stonewall's bullying of a black lesbian. Sort of like a moment of therapy where Robin can LARP ineffectually as someone who knows what they're talking about.