Article with sums up where we are now

Not RTFT but opened the article.

First thing said:

'In March 2018, a small group of cisgender feminists gathered at a south London swimming pool, announced that they ‘self-identify’ as men, and gate-crashed a men-only event.¹ Some wore fake beards. The pool’s regular patrons were more confused than outraged.'

North London
Ponds not swimming pool
Was not a 'men only event'

Oh and I note they've assumed gender of both the Feminists and the men!!!!

Well that's off to a good start. I mean FFS not even bothering to check where in London and what kind of thing is pretty pathetic.

Can't wait to read more! From the fact the very first bit is completely wrong. I'm not going to be super confident in other 'facts' in it TBH!!!

@NoHunGosh utterly brilliant list! Thank you.

cor, that article is piss poor innit?

can't be arsed to address it much, but I do note that the author seems to consider Twitter a site that cheerfully hosts pictures of a woman's breasts nailed to a table as better moderated than Mumsnet. criminy

I exclude myself now that I realise that my intent to do that has been compromised by my hegemonic oppression in re: forms of argument that invite useful scrutiny.

I also have to exclude myself (well MNHQ deleted me) for being facetious about my response to being referred to as "ladies" - my absolutely serious response is that - well, yes, you can call me by my birth title which I don't ever use, because I prefer the title I've earned to the one bestowed on me by patriarchy ...

I really hate "Lady" or 'ladies". And I judge any man - and most women - who use it.

*theorists

Also have a look at theysaythisneverhappens.tumblr.com/ or m.facebook.com/groups/1722756661380462/

And then tell us again how we are conspiracy theories for agreeing that self-ID type policies can lead and have led to predators taking advantage.

Lol at the 'baseless and ultimately conspiratorial claim' that the trans rights movement 'offers cover to sexual predators'. I WISH we were making it all up.

Just scroll womenarehuman.com for a delightful sampling of predators who are using the trans rights movement for cover.

Of course, you'll claim the website is all lies because you don't like the language used, even though the claims and stories are backed up with evidence.

Stop gaslighting us, OP. We see it and we keep seeing it. Male predators are pretending to be trans to get access to victims. It's offensive to women to pretend these predators are female and it's offensive to trans people to pretend these predators are actually trans.

Welcome @NoHunGosh

I feel just the same way as you do. Apart from the biological issues which relates to the female biology (period pains, pregnancy and birth complications, menopause) there are so many roles women are expected to fill. And whilst we are doing all that work, we tend to go part time, make less money and end up with poor pensions.

I remember discussing Covid with a Transwoman or TRA here and stating that I would be very happy to read, discuss and sympathise with any transwoman who had juggled work, home and homeschooling during Covid. That was a terrible burden which mainly fell on women. Nobody ever got back to me, not even with a link to Twitter or a blog. It seems that particular burden didn’t fall on Transwomen to the same extent that it fell on biological women.

I usually charge for coaching. But this is so dire, I just have to give the writer some advice. It may seem odd that I’m trying to sharpen my opponents’ weapons. But, like most feminists I know, I actually want a reasoned debate.

First, if you want to be taken seriously, you don’t fill an ‘investigative’ report with insulting language. Making your bias so obvious reduces the credibility of your research.

Actually, I’ll leave it at that one point. It’s a major one.

Welcome NoHunGosh and thank you for that powerful comment. I too have noticed that it isn't women themselves and our lives that seem to be identified with but the idea of us and the idea of our lives. Which is one of the faultlines between women and those who wish to be women. And that springs out of that biggest faultline of all - the status of women in a male-dominated world.

@merrymouse What you said!
Brilliantly elaborated on by
@NoHunGosh Brilliantly put. I hope you keep posting. x

Bugger! That's what comes of trying to be clever.

At the risk of lowering the tone after R0 's always fabulous archivist intervention, I thought you'd selected hegemonistic because I very much heard it in a Rocket tone (GOTG - the minutiae scene).

Maybe they'll put me in the Biological Facts gulag.

@EmbarrassingAdmissions

I realise that my motivation is irrelevant when perspective is all. - I wonder if you have, however, highlighted a new non-crime incident around unthinking hegemonistic oppression

It's worth consideration. I'm sure winning an argument in the service of hegemony by underhand tactics such as coherent thought, clear argument and what have you is no win. There is no win in support of hate. And I've just realised it's "hegemonic" not "hegemonistic".

Bugger! That's what comes of trying to be clever.

It's feasible that a number of offenders such as myself would fail gulag reeducation because it is not enough to have a superficial civility when others claim to know our thoughts

No one ever got re-educated in a gulag. It's just somewhere to put you, and it works quite well for that.

The most startling thing about that article is the claim it's a '9 min read'. Maybe TRAs have to say the long words out loud?

Beeee kiiind, Alias.

because none of it seems to correlate with the lived experience of natal women

Exactly right. And welcome!

Welcome NoHunGosh

I am officially delurking: never posted before on the Feminism chat boards before, came to MN during pregnancy 8 years ago and stayed etc etc...
Read the article and... well.. it's absolute tosh.
I don't see any Transphobia here on Mumsnet. What I do see are a lot of women who have experienced life as a biological woman and all the shitty end of the stick which that entails (periods, inappropriate advances from men as soon as you start getting breasts, threat of male violence as part of everyday life, the frigid/whore insults as soon as you become sexually active, the fear of unwanted pregnancy, the heartache of infertility, miscarriage, domestic violence, the shitty antenatal and postnatal care, the minimizing of birth injuries, the judgement over whether you breastfeed or formula feed, the judgement if you breastfeed too long, the judgement if you go back to work, the judgement if you are a stay at home parent, the never ending juggling of motherhood and employment, the being paid less than male counterparts, the expectations that you should be having sex with your partner even when you are knackered and in pain so they don't fuck off with some nubile younger model without stretchmarks, the never ending 'wife work' of organizing all the day to day shit in a family unit from laundry, to remembering birthdays, appointments, school crap, homework, playdates, getting everyone fed and clothed, teeth brushed..., the expectation to take on the day to day care of aging/ailing parents , helping out extended family, the every day physical crap of menopause and the fact that you just get dismissed by medical professionals as exaggerating pain, making a fuss etc etc etc). So... when I hear TWAW or 'I identify as a woman' I (and pretty much every biological woman I have ever asked) wants to know which particular bit of being a woman they are referring to because none of it seems to correlate with the lived experience of natal women

Mumsnet is theoretically a parenting resource website where parents can discuss anything from baby food and schools to mental health and jobs.

And childbirth and IVF and contraception and abortions and miscarriage and breastfeeding and menopause and maternity rights and all those other annoyingly sex specific things.

(extract from Rebecca Jane Morgan's article in OP)

"The site is so synonymous with that ideology that public knowledge of its transphobia has been described as ‘conventional wisdom.’⁴"

Reference provided for this claim is Edie Miller's article in The Outline, ‘Why is British media so transphobic?’
5 November 2018. theoutline.com/post/6536/british-feminists-media-transphobic?zd=1&zi=iv74xdyn

Miller's hilarious article was discussed and fact checked at the time of publication,
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3415244-hilarious-article

It was also critiqued by Robert Jackman in The Spectator,
(extract)
"It’s true that transgender issues are frequently discussed on Mumsnet – but why assume this is down to bigotry, rather than the fact that many of these concerns (the housing of male sex offenders in women’s prisons, for example) resonate deeply with the women of Middle England?" (continues)
www.spectator.co.uk/article/mumsnet-and-the-british-media-aren-t-transphobic-

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416273-The-Spectator-Mumsnet-and-the-British-media-aren-t-transphobic

It sums up brilliantly where we are now!

I disagree with the OP's assessment of brilliance.

(extract from article in OP)
As weird and comical as it seems at face value, the swimming pool caper was merely the most attention-grabbing episode in a long history of anti-trans agitation on one of the most innocuously-named websites on the Internet. Founded in 2000, Mumsnet is theoretically a parenting resource website where parents can discuss anything from baby food and schools to mental health and jobs.

Mumsnet has a long history of effective campaigns focussed on women and children including 'Let Toys Be Toys' and 'We Can't Consent to This'.
www.lettoysbetoys.org.uk/
wecantconsenttothis.uk/

A Woman's Place is reading: The Politicization of Mumsnet (Sarah Pedersen & Selina Todd 22 Nov 2020)

"Sarah Pedersen is Professor of Communication and Media at Robert Gordon University
Professor Sarah Pedersen's book investigates the growing politicization of the online parenting forum Mumsnet and its use by politicians to try to influence middle-class women in the UK. The site's discussion topics go far beyond traditional 'mothering' subjects and encompass politics, feminism and current affairs. Understood as a safe space for gender-critical voices, the site has spawned real-life activism and continues to be both praised and attacked for its support of free speech on controversial subjects. Professor Pedersen examines how Mumsnet has become a central part of a resurgent women's rights movement in the UK. She argues that its openness to discussion around this subject has allowed the site to function as a subaltern counter-public - a space where gender-critical feminists have been able to share information and make plans for action and agitation."

Many of those new to the issues with self-id discussed on the feminism boards have found this thread useful:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Does plopping and not engaging with any points raised constitute "civility", or being "in the spirit", I wonder?

From the author's bio,

"Rebecca Jane Morgan
Historian of modern Britain, popular culture, and queer identities. PhD student, trans activist"

A PhD British history student should recognise the importance of historical accuracy and be capable of basic research.

(extract)
In March 2018, a small group of cisgender feminists gathered at a south London swimming pool, announced that they ‘self-identify’ as men, and gate-crashed a men-only event.¹ Some wore fake beards. The pool’s regular patrons were more confused than outraged.
The group had met and organised the stunt on the Mumsnet message boards. It was intended as a protest against trans women using women-only spaces, and, more generally, against potential reforms to the UK’s Gender Recognition Act 2004 that would enable people to self-identify their legal gender. (continues)

There are a number of factual inaccuracies.
The action at Dulwich swimming pool was carried out by two women, Amy Desir and Hannah Clarke, in protest against Swim England's self id policy. The policy was discussed with the leisure centre management beforehand. Neither wore a beard. Amy Desir wore a pink hat. Swim England's policy was withdrawn shortly afterwards.

On Spring Bank Holiday (May28th 2018) ten women identifying as men for the day used the Hampstead Heath men's pond. Some women wore beards.

June 5th 2018 Government responded to the petition by #ManFriday and other grassroots women's groups. It committed to a consultation on self-id and that no changes would be made to the Equality Act provision for single sex spaces.
petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/214118

None of the women involved are 'cisgender'

MARK WOOD and JOANI WALSH FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY
18th March 2018
"Feminists 'self-identify' as males... to infiltrate men-only swim session
Women hit back over proposals to make it easier for people to change gender
Amy Desir wore just trunks and pink cap to swim session at south London pool
Another woman told staff she had every right to join session because she 'identified as male'
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5514231/Feminists-self-identify-males-infiltrate-men-swim-session.html

June 1st 2018
"The Battle of Hampstead Ponds: Meet the women who are willing to don mankinis and fake beards to protest against rules that let men say they're female and use the ladies' changing rooms
Ten women gatecrashed male-only bathing pond in North London this week
It was the most decorous of invasions. They were not strident or impolite
Their method of drawing attention to their cause was a novel one
They said they were ‘identifying’ as men for the day to highlight problems"

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5796701/Hampstead-ponds-row-continues-transgender-demands-going-far.html

Hannah Clarke
text of the speech made by ManFriday’s Media Officer at a Women’s Place UK meeting on 17th May 2018.

(extract)
"I’ve called ManFriday a movement, I think a better word might be concept. We are a loosely organised group of women who are horrified by the implications of self identification and the resultant erasure of women. We are making a stand against what is happening by self identifying as men on Fridays. We show how preposterous it is to be able to self-declare as the opposite sex by doing exactly that.

This all came about when Amy Desir took it upon herself to address the ludicrous guidance Swim England produced to engage trans people in swimming. This guidance, soundly rejected by the good ladies of Mumsnet, included such gems as telling us women who object to penises in their changing rooms require education, whilst our boobs should be covered at all times for fear of causing offence. Amy started a Mumsnet thread one Friday morning in February telling us that she had arranged a meeting at her local pool to discuss her inclusion in men only swimming sessions as a self identified man in accordance with the guidance.

This thread inspired a whole lot of us – around 160 at the last count – to get behind the concept and thus ManFriday was born. We started with a Facebook page where we plan our protests and share resources and now have a website, a very active (and funny) twitter account, and a whole load of unconnected women joining in on Twitter every Friday using the hashtag ManFriday.

I joined after seeing Amy’s thread coincided with me wanting to be able to do something. I had attended the Woman’s Place meeting in London in February and was in awe of all the women there. I was too shy to put my hand up and talk – I didn’t feel like I had anything to say at all, but I think might make up for that now." (continues)
manfridayuk.org/2018/05/18/why-manfriday/

It was pretty irritating concerning the number of items she and her interviewer (to be fair) considered to be previously unknown until Riddell discovered them in an archive. (I do, of course, understand that any interview would be tedious if they used appropriate disclaimers at every point but it would be helpful to have one at the outset of the interview.)

A fair amount of the discussion was, of course, taken up with her coverage of previously unknown queer histories. Because of all the things that previous historians were egregiously wrong about, none of this was known before her scholarship (I paraphrase) and there is definitely no scintilla of error nor any apprehension that Riddell might be interpreting items through a lens of contemporary mores.

I am interested to see that one of these figures Riddell discussed has been given 'they/them' pronouns by wikipedia and that the Beaumont Society (founded in the 1960s) reflects the name.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevalier_d%27%C3%89on

#NoThankYou