Douglas Murray asks: Does Owen Jones have a woman problem?

people struggle with the idea that this kind of structural inequality / privilege operates at class level. It's not about YOU, it's about the class you're a member of. The outcomes for the class you're part of may well be different to your own personal outcomes. An individual man probably isn't an MP and never stands a chance of being one. That doesn't change the fact that only 34% of MPs are women though does it?

Male privilege on display in a times article today about nudists in Sherwood Forest. Many comments saying what's wrong with a bit of nudity just chill out. Obviously never been flashed at. And do not fear a serious sexual assault.

Youtuber

I'm quite proud of DM writing this. It takes something for men, even highly intelligent men like him, to ackowledge previously unseen sexism is really quite refreshing.

For me it's how the term "privilege" gets used beastlyslumber. Often as a club to beat down enemies with any nuance disregarded.

God, never mind the specific use of 'used', I'm typoing like I've got frankfurters for fingers.

@ArabellaScott - absolutely, excellent examples.

I don't think Douglas will be revising his view that the magical status of full time mother makes up for not having the opportunity to build up a decent pension, so don't hold your breath for any real feminism. He's just noticed the fucking obvious.

(I''m on hols so don't have my copy of the madness of crowds to hand to see the correct quote, but there was definitely some rose tinted romanticism about full time motherhood which ignored economic reality).

very much enjoying the use / used side debate. you vipers are endlessly informative.

How will Murray fare?
I don't think Murray will care what they do and OJ and his followers know that, so my guess is that they probably won't bother. Sarah Ditum did care and OJ knew it.

This is why we continue to make our case and use reason and fact to do so. Because if we have confidence in our argument (as we should) and be persistent and resolute in making and defending it, people of eother sex who fairly assess it will be persuaded.

This is how a decent, rational, pluralistic society should work. Not by bullies shoiting pejoratives at people and imposing conclusions on people by totalitarian fiat.

I'm not surprised Murray, who always had this approach, looks like he's being persuaded. I am delighted, tbh.

I sort of agree with DM to an extent about male privilege. There are definitely many aspects of life where males are privileged over females. But I don't believe there is a blanket male privilege that confers advantage onto males in every situation. I think a lot of times, men get defensive about the idea of male privilege because it is used in that blanket way, and they can easily see that males are not always subject to an advantage in life (e.g. in education, or certain industries like publishing, the creative arts etc). When it is broken down into specific situations, it's much easier to recognise and discuss. I suppose all I'm saying is that 'male privilege' is a term that is wide open to many competing interpretations, and this makes it inefficient at expressing the concepts we want to express. Anyway, I'm glad DM sees the misogyny inherent in OJ's approach and the very real situation where males' speech is more free than ours. And I'm very pleased to imagine LOJ reading this and seeing himself called out for his woman-hating - and described as a YouTuber

I think male privilege is essentially about all the seemingly small things men simply don't need to notice or take account of in their everyday lives (safety etc just for starters).

It's the not needing to notice and therefore women's arguments can be neatly reduced to 'looking for sexism', 'getting hysterical about nothing' etc.

Yes, some of this privilege is the absence of things - absence of the constant awareness of certain health related issues, absence of the awareness of the male gaze, absence of a generalised learned fear/anxiety when out in public, absence of knowledge of dangers of rape are a few examples I suppose. Hard to understand a million tiny examples of sexism and misogyny when the world is built out of them.

Like trying to see water when you're swimming in it.

Interesting experiment if nothing else.

Owen Jones sent his followers after Sarah Ditum for her column on Terry Pratchett/twitter, even though (I think) it presented a relatively fair analysis of both sides of the argument and concluded that it is impossible to know conclusively what somebody would have thought if they are dead. (Seems very fair to me - I don't even know what I definitely think about a whole range of subjects!).

How will Murray fare?

I think it's interesting when men suddenly see it. And interesting who sees it and who doesn't.
Andrew Doyle's another who I wouldn't have had down as a feminist ally, and yet who's started seeing it.
James Kirkup of course saw it a few years ago.

It's the not needing to notice and therefore women's arguments can be neatly reduced to 'looking for sexism', 'getting hysterical about nothing' etc.

I am slightly bugged by the "used" - it should be "use". Common mistake.
Sorry - short pedantic interruption: "I used not to think so", struck me as a much tidier sentence construction when I read the article.
But - back to the main subject!

I remember watching Owen Jones interview Piers Morgan on his YouTube news channel. I was just struck by the whole jokey banter on display. OJ good humouredly pressing Piers on his beliefs about transgender people and vice versa. There was none of the indignant, outraged vitriol that OJ (and others) preserve especially for women who have these views. It was like two blokes ‘agreeing to disagree’ over a pint. That just summed up the whole misogynistic stitch up that’s playing out. OJ wouldn’t speak with JKR or Susan Moore or Helen Joyce like that - he wouldn’t even have the guts to invite them on to his channel.

Men are just allowed to get away with this stuff. It’s as if they hold more value as human beings and no one wants to bring them down if they transgress. Give them the benefit of the doubt or just gloss over it.

It's interesting that it's gender ideology and owen jones that has opened DMs eyes to male privilege and the misogyny that runs deep within trans rights activists.

DM is right, anyone who has been following this for even just a short time will have noticed the different treatment of men and women who speak out. The pile ons that OJ orchestrates are particularly awful.

[quote RoyalCorgi]I think we know the answer:

unherd.com/2021/08/does-owen-jones-have-a-woman-problem/[/quote]
Douglas Murray has always denied that men have any privilege over women and The Madness of Crowds was certainly no friend to feminists. So for him to begin to wonder is quite something!

Does male privilege really exist? I did not used to think so. But in recent years, I’ve come to realise that not only might it exist, but that, at least in one respect, I may also benefit from it.

My thinking too. I think "male privilege" is one of those potentially unhelpful privilege concepts that I think are effectively "neo-Xist" in an attempt to be "anti-Xist".

These sometimes seem to exist in a sort of metaphysical form as a sort of "original sin". Or "sins of the ancestors". I'm reflexively skeptical about treating individuals as representatives of their identity group.

But in this particular issue, the evidence for it existing here and now is undeniable. Whatever you want to call it, the differing standards in what happens to men and women is stark.

Men can be hit hard in this fight - eg Graham Linehan - but they have to work EXTREMELY hard at it. And has he ever had a threat of violence or rape? "Donkey Kong says trans right" GIFs aren't really the same thing as JKR gets... (For a few mild tweets and 1 essay!).

As Jane Clare Jones once said - this is the biggest patriarchal unmasking you could imagine. To not see this, even as a man, you must be quite misogynist yourself...