Douglas Murray asks: Does Owen Jones have a woman problem?

I guess conversely "if supporters of womens' rights are forced into a defensive position of denying transphobia, the reality of women is erased".

Nope, doesn't make sense that way around either. It's certainly fucking aggravating, but I don't detect any "erasure".

If supporters of trans rights are forced into a defensive position of denying misogyny, the reality of trans people is erased

A fallacy. The whole thing is a bit of a stream of consciousness but this in particular stood out as nonsensical.

er what now? has Owen never seen the Genderbread person? or the mermaids 'GI Joe to Barbie' scale?

If he can’t engage with the subject, how does he think he is going to make any argument, least of all a once and for all rebuttal?

and this

Shon Faye, whose upcoming book The Transgender Issue is a must read

genuinely made me laugh out loud

cor, that was long.

also parts of it were bollocks

He [Murray] declares himself “Deeply uncomfortable about the idea of a young effeminate boy being told he is actually a girl or a young tomboyish girl being told that she is a boy” — a ludicrously false claim

er what now? has Owen never seen the Genderbread person? or the mermaids 'GI Joe to Barbie' scale?

as for listing as one of Suzanne Moore's crimes

when Lib Dem politician Layla Moran came out as pansexual, Suzanne ridiculed her over it

frankly if the word 'pansexual' doesn't make you fear for your Le Crueset then you have no sense of humour. I suspect this is the case for poor Owen.

Sorry, the 'golden bridge' may be referencing a different thread.

Well I think that's OJ's golden bridge pretty comprehensively burnt.

He is so dishonest, and refuses to face up to the critical issues of this debate - eg prisons, refuges, sports, hospital wards, changing areas etc. He just won't do it. He puts his fingers in his ears and says 'lalalalala, women agree with me, Im going to cherry pick polls to keep pushing a narrative, lalalalala, there's no clash of rights, lalalalala, anyone who deviates from the line is a hard right bigot'.

And he is a steaming hypocrite as well.

He gave Nimco Ali a load of shit about Boris's 'bum boy' thing - like a dog with a bone because he wanted to expose her for being in any way connected to BJ and therefore guilty by association and unable to ever have an opinion on anything else ever again.

And yet, he is constantly plugging Shon Faye (including in his latest piece) who is on record as making highly misogynistic comments on Twitter, telling women to 'enjoy ur erasure' and telling young transwomen that the way to be a woman is 'suck dick, get tits early'.

So surely, by Owen's rules, anything he ever says again is discredited because he has supported someone who has openly made misogynistic comments, and is therefore a misogynist himself? I would love to see Nimco Ali give him a 'is that misogynist Owen? Do you admit that is a misogynistic tweet, yes or no? Do you? DO YOU?' interrogation.

What's sauce for the goose Owen.....

Little OJ likes to play oppression top trumps - he sides with whoever he believes to be most oppressed and will not waiver - it has been pointed out to him time and time again but his ears are shut (when women speak)

trans activists unwittingly reaching the point.

Not even unwittingly - that's a lot of the foundation of all this woke stuff. The assertion that everything is about power - that there's no such thing as truth, and basically any assertion of truth is just a demonstration of power.

Everyone is arguing in bad faith, therefore it's pointless to argue in good faith.

Feel free to start digging in the terminology encyclopedia:

Truth
Power (systemic)
Critical

Archived version;
archive.is/ZcOn5

[quote RoyalCorgi]OJ has replied. He's very angry:

owenjones84.medium.com/the-lies-of-anti-trans-rights-activists-need-to-be-rebutted-once-and-for-all-2780ad5f908[/quote]
archive version: archive.is/ZcOn5

''Politics is, more often than not, about the exercise of power rather than truth. A narrative does not need to be honest to triumph: it simply needs to become the commonsense of the powerful.''

• trans activists unwittingly reaching the point.

He’s very angry

… and dishonest.

a visceral hatred of women who don't agree with him
To be fair, this isn't peculiar to Oweneen the Sprat, or even to TRAs, more's the pity

@RoyalCorgi I completely agree with what you say. It’s impossible to argue with him. Yet I do wonder if the OJ of , say, ten years ago would have anticipated a future in which he was on the same side of the argument as people who believe that a gay man who doesn’t want to sleep with trans men because he prefers people with penises must be a transphobic penis fetishist. Yet here we are. I find the policing of people’s sexual tastes one of the most sinister aspects of the whole thing.

mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1423611835186561026

Thing is, I don’t believe that deep down OJ really thinks that women such as JKR, Suzanne Moore, Sarah Ditum etc are ghastly transphobic bigots

I think he has a visceral hatred of women who don't agree with him, and he will throw any slur at them to orchestrate pile ons or attempt to silence

Whenever I look at yet another OJ triggered row on twitter, I'm struck by how his followers seem to include a lot of low grade individuals quick to resort to abuse who really do not like women

He really does have some interesting followers. A lot of his opinion has been so wide of the mark in recent years I really don't understand why anyone takes him seriously anymore, let alone pay him for his insights.

I don't think the concept of privilege is all that useful in general and worse, often results in sloppy analysis and lack of real nuance, and also failure to look at how systems work overall. And it's not necessary to explain the ideas it's trying to get across anyway. Yeah, being male can be an advantage in some settings. In others its a disadvantage. Society does not aways reward men for being men, if you are the wrong kind of man you will be seen as dangerous and useless, and your maleness is very much part of that.

Anyway - yes, OJ has an issue with women. I'm not sure what that's about really. Part of his problem with trans issues is that he hardened his view right from the outset - he is the kind of person who reflexively chooses a side and then can't easily change his view. It would really bother him to be "on the wrong side," this is a problem many people have that keeps them from really considering what they believe and accept as potentially true.

The problem with leading a mob is that if you falter they'll devour you so your leadership needs morph*, at least in some senses, into also following the mob yourself.

• not accidental

I personally know many people in Scotland - and yes, I know it's a niche situation - who were debating voting Labour vs SNP in December 2019 in the hope that a straight-up situation of more Labour than Conservative seats, even if no majority, would give Labour first chance to form a coalition government. As it turns out, it wouldn't have. I still think it's interesting that Own Jones's misogynist hypercapitalist shite tipped them SNP (and the SNP are not exactly feminists either).

I think sometimes in the wider UK we don't see the damage misogynists do to the political process because there really is a stark right (CON) vs left (LAB) choice, and they're both virulently misogynist. When CON moves a little toward recognising that women exist, LAB suffers - but then hardens their anti-woman position. It shouldn't be this way, but it is because LAB leadership are cowards, and won't throw out the misogynists in their ranks (but will throw out the feminists).

Own Jones is an opportunist. Yes, he sucks, but he's only relevant because misogynist cowards in the LAB leadership allow and encourage him to be. He's a hack.

Whenever I look at yet another OJ triggered row on twitter, I'm struck by how his followers seem to include a lot of low grade individuals quick to resort to abuse who really do not like women (including in particular the woman that OJ has targeted in whatever today's row was over).

This kind of following will turn into an albatross that OJ is going to be stuck with. He might already be at the point where his output will need to be tailored to keep them on side.