Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Male abuser denied help because lover is non-gender, in the Times

80 replies

Igneococcus · 06/08/2021 06:39

In Scotland, I'm not sure I understand it fully:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1cdfbfac-f63b-11eb-8f01-2c678acbb979?shareToken=8fa2365793d73c17f8778e876b8fa8ce

OP posts:
transdimensional · 06/08/2021 08:41

Sexuality or sexual orientation is covered under the Equality Act, perhaps the judge needed direction, as they often do in my experience.

I am not absolutely clear that the decision was the judge's - I think the decision might have been that of the rehabilitation programme.

Either way, I don't think it was a case of someone illegally saying "you're not heterosexual and therefore can't enter the programme".

I think it was rather a case of someone saying, the programme is for male abusers plus female victims - and your partner no longer identifies as female - therefore you can't enter the programme.

I don't think it is necessarily illegal for the programme to cater solely to a combination of male abusers and female victims? (The problem here isn't that, but rather the fact that the victim was incorrectly judged to be nonfemale.) But if it is illegal then I'm not sure whether the judge could have used this case to make an order against the programme or whether a separate legal case against the programme would need to be brought.

Chickenyhead · 06/08/2021 08:20

Sexuality or sexual orientation is covered under the Equality Act, perhaps the judge needed direction, as they often do in my experience.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/12

transdimensional · 06/08/2021 08:15

So you can now come out trans, that changes your partner's sexuality without their consent, and that is enshrined in law?

I don't know whether the definition of sexuality is enshrined in law or not.
The programme is only available for male-against-female abuse, which it was (stupidly) decided didn't apply in this case. The programme doesn't itself make a judgement about the definition of sexuality (although it's true that according to TRA ideology the man wasn't in a straight relationship). It makes a judgement about the gender identity of the victim, presumably.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/08/2021 08:12

@InspiralCoalescenceRingdown

So you can now come out trans, that changes your partner's sexuality without their consent, and that is enshrined in law?

Good grief.

It is a different version of the trans widow effect and at the heart of the misunderstood veto.
transdimensional · 06/08/2021 08:09

I know I'm being incredibly naive, but I'm hoping it's because they want to ensure he goes to prison.

It isn't absolutely clear from the article whether he is going to prison, although that is the logic of the fact that the programme is an alternative to prison.

However, I doubt his victim did this to ensure he went to prison, because if the court was astonished to realise the effects of their actions, the victim may have been equally surprised. (But perhaps this person is unusually sharp or well-connected and did indeed know this would be the outcome.)

InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 06/08/2021 08:09

So you can now come out trans, that changes your partner's sexuality without their consent, and that is enshrined in law?

Good grief.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/08/2021 08:07

@Chickenyhead

So who is the real victim of this decision? The woman beating male, or all future women who have the unfortunate experience of this man.
Don't forget the woman being beaten by this man, who, by opting out of womanhood, will not be able to access the services provided to women by this scheme.
TheWeeDonkey · 06/08/2021 08:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

ObviousNameChage · 06/08/2021 08:00

I know I'm being incredibly naive, but I'm hoping it's because they want to ensure he goes to prison.

The alternative is too ridiculous,stupid and dangerous to fully accept.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 06/08/2021 07:58

in a world that prioritises gender identity it males perfect sense

Best typo ever.

transdimensional · 06/08/2021 07:57

Had the victim not identified as nonbinary, the abuser could presumably have identified as nonbinary or female in order to avoid attending these sessions... though this may have been counterproductive if the alternative is prison.
It is not clear to me whether the victim identified as nonbinary at the time of the abuse or only subsequently. However, there is a fair chance that in either scenario the agency would no longer regard it as male-against-female abuse - even though it blatantly is.

Chickenyhead · 06/08/2021 07:54

So who is the real victim of this decision? The woman beating male, or all future women who have the unfortunate experience of this man.

334bu · 06/08/2021 07:53

Just admin! Hmm

Whatwouldscullydo · 06/08/2021 07:51

No problems they said

No conflicts

Hmm
kowari · 06/08/2021 07:49

*NB not nba

334bu · 06/08/2021 07:49

If it is an alternative to prison and is only available to opposite " gender identity" couples, then the victim could ensure a prison sentence by simply saying they no longer identify as a woman? Hmm

kowari · 06/08/2021 07:49

@Igneococcus

They are saying the relationship is not heterosexual, which is just bizzare.
Yes, the clue is in the word heterosexual, the NBA partner is of the female sex.
EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/08/2021 07:48

@334bu

Is this system an alternative to a prison sentence?
The scheme, which has been backed by Edinburgh Women’s Aid, is an alternative to prison, but not to prosecution.
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/08/2021 07:44

There's some more info about it here:
www.gov.scot/publications/caledonian-system-evaluation-analysis-programme-tackling-domestic-abuse-scotland/

It seems that it is actually 3 programmes, one for the man, one for the woman, and one for the child, all running in tandem.

334bu · 06/08/2021 07:35

Is this system an alternative to a prison sentence?

KevinBaconsJeans · 06/08/2021 07:33

In realityland this is indeed absurd. But in a world that prioritises gender identity it males perfect sense, no? They have followed the ideology to its logical conclusion.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/08/2021 07:32

So nothing to do with sexuality. As a PP said, and admin matter.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/08/2021 07:31

My reading of it is that the service is specifically for men who abuse women. As his partner is not a woman Hmm he cannot access the service.

This is what happens when you replace sex with gender.

334bu · 06/08/2021 07:29

So the Scottish Government is no longer content with redefining what a woman is, now they are redefining our sexualities. No wonder Humza couldn't tell us how many sexes there are! 🤡

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 06/08/2021 07:15

I wonder if the power dynamics of the relationship are so substantially different that despite the common feature of domestic abuse there is supposed to be little crossover? Are there enough data to come to a judgment on this matter?

Or, is this an administrative matter?

“The criminal justice service report recommended referral to a Sacro programme aimed at men who abuse their female partners.

“Meanwhile the victim, a biological woman, now identifies as non-gender so the court could not accede.”
…
Sacro’s website confirms the Caledonian system is specifically designed to “address domestic abuse by men towards a female partner or ex-partner”.
…
There is no reference to what would happen in the case of a man abusing their partner who identifies as being neither a woman nor a man.

archived version of article for future use: archive.is/j68MP