Trans prisoners in Ireland: update

I did see a few links with Tulsa but didn't know what it was.

I'll have a read.

The first person in Limerick womens wing, is a peadophile who sexually and physically abused their step son for 2 years.
This person tried to appeal their sentence because of how difficult it is being a transwoman in a woman's prison.

NiceGerbil

TUSLA, the child protection agency in Ireland, sent letters threatening media outlets saying if they didn't remove coverage of BK, that they would take them to court.

Yes agree.

Mine was an ideal world thing.

In general prisons in the UK (don't know about Ireland) are in a really bad way. Drugs, violence, untreated MH issues, suicides and more.

It's crap. But very few people care. Or at least not the ones with the purse strings.

Yeah - Ireland excludes personality disorders from involuntary detention under the mental health act. I suspect that means that forensic services would not accept a referral for a patient with a primary diagnosis of personality disorder.

www.irishlegal.com/article/teen-with-personality-disorder-to-be-released-from-involuntary-detention

Sorry NiceGerbil, didn't mean to sound like I was violently disagreeing with you.

In theory, I completely agree that a secure forensic setting would be the most meaningfully therapeutic place for an individual like BK.

However, I think that in practice a lot of the same issues would arise. Because Ireland has full self-ID they would be automatically treated as a female patient. And the number of beds in high- (ie Broadmoor) or medium-secure services for women is pitifully low because there really aren't many dangerous, mentally ill female patients. So if BK was transferred there, they would still be:

• removing access to a highly sought after therapeutic service from a woman in need
• endangering all the patients and staff in the service
• likely to end up spending extended periods in seclusion as a way of managing risk because everything else is unsuitable.

It's an absolute mess. I'm so frustrated that the entire forensic system is having to contort itself to this ridiculous extent to accommodate individuals who identify as having a female gender identity, but who clearly cannot be managed safely in the female prison estate.

(Two asides:

1. Looking at this article, it seems like Ireland has basically one secure hospital for the entire country, with 20 female beds, which is horrendously low:

1. Iirc, Ireland doesn't count any form of personality disorder as a mental illness, so it may not be possible for even seriously damaged individuals like BK to access forensic services without another MH diagnosis like psychosis)

Women think they "know" that but what does "know" mean?

Do you mean as in able to produce chapter and verse of the precise reference that demonstrates it?

because I do!

;-)

Is anything-else working so well?

I can't find any updates at all.

I have found something that says there are 2 males in Limerick women's prison. Assume BK is one. The other is s sex offender.

What I find fascinating is when you Google, results for BK are very few.

Work has been done to get things deleted/ removed.

Who?

And I checked the Ireland courts site where you can search judgements. Nothing. Maybe the case hasn't been heard yet...?

In short I couldn't find out.

Where they are
Whether they have been tried
Any of the original reports in the Irish press

That's really sinister to me.

So often people seem to be pretty much vanishing from results.

Hmm. Got an idea...

Then there's other things like eg USA prisons run for profit. Massive incarceration of black men (and black women?) and for v long times compared to white population.

Even those who claim it's a people problem etc. MRAs for years and now those supporting gender rather than sex for eg prison. They know full well that men are way more violent than women and that when there's a sex offence it's almost a given it was a bloke.

They pretend it's not true for a variety of reasons but all but a tiny minority know this I'm sure. And know full well that putting males in female estate is a disaster for the women even if they aren't violent etc. And that if they have committed sex offences against women then it's obvious what is going to happen.

It's not in good faith.

Of male pattern crime?

It's a lovely idea I'm just wondering, is it to demonstrate that sex offences are massively predominantly committed by males?

I think most ordinary people know that don't they?

What is interesting is the stats by country will be massively impacted by the laws in that country, reporting levels, if reports are recorded, whether it's seen to be worth reporting, the level of stigma attached and things like that.

Anyone fancy helping with a GLOBAL database?

Dont worry about not having the skills I can teach them.

Do you want this to continue?

oops 2 instances

here are the NZ stats for a country of 4.9 million very equivalent to ROI and Scotland

I know this is from UK England & Wales BUT population 59.1million ie 10 times that of Rep of Ireland at around 5 million of the top of my head. But is anyone interested in SOLUTIONS?

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-sexual-offending-context-is-all/

May I let you know that I believe the use of this "trans-" as an adjective when in English grammar it is a prefix, is actually the 1st part of their manipulation?
I used TG|NB population, I FEEL a lot better NOT to be repeating tG extremists propaganda in my head. I am autistic so pls dont be cross but that is what it looks like to me.

when I have a chance I have some stats from ROI but if anyone fancies helping with "FOI" requests there are things we CAN do, I promise.

I'm not sure why what I'm saying is being disagreed with!

My only point is

Being locked up 23 hours a day in inhumane
Putting males in the general womens estate is inhumane and if it's a person who is extremely violent towards women then it's obviously unconscionable
S person who has the best severe MH problems that BK has and given their childhood is not a candidate for standard prison anyway. They are extremely disturbed.
To be, a secure setting for people like that is the best solution.

This is in theory.

I have never said they should be placed on a mixed standard psychiatric in patient setting. Or that they should be treated as female.

The issue here is that in order to be trans supportive-

Female guards are having to search this person (if one of the ones in the report are BK).
BK who is extremely mentally ill and has had s horrific past is being locked up 23 hours a day which will help no one
If standard prison then may be out at at end of sentence (not sure how that all works in Ireland)
If in a psychiatric setting for seriously dangerous very mentally ill people then it's on staying in until you are safe etc which could be never.

The more famous criminals in Broadmoor have spent the rest of their lives now.

That's not a reasonable assessment?

We keep being told about the importance of 'balancing' needs.

Where are the needs of female prisoners being balanced?

What compromises are TW prisoners being required to make in the name of this balance?

Why are we being lied to and why is 'no' not a word anyone seems to remember?

TW prisoners refuse to allow the female officers a male officer present. As the TW prisoners refused to allow the unit permitting highly unsafe male offenders to be in the female estate with some mitigation of risk to the female inmates.

The evidence appears to be that some TW prisoners have fuck all care or respect for females, and are determined to remove every shred of privacy, dignity, safety and risk assessment protecting them.

Which would give the absolute lie to that the aim was to be safe and cared for out of the male estate. Those (obviously talking about only these specific prisoners) would seem to be openly exploiting the opened door to meet many more needs than just their safety and respect for their identity and it involves making active use of non consenting females, overcoming all boundaries and enforcing their risks on those women.

As there is no way to tell which TW prisoners may exploit the situation to put women in these highly risky situations, which will obviously lead to further female prisoners being harmed because these demands are being made for reasons that do not involve respecting or caring about women, there has to be an absolute separation of estates. However a male prisoner identifies and whatever diversity the male estate requires, in any sane and moral world the female prisoners are not props or resources available for their use.

NiceGerbil

Broadmoor as a hospital is mixed sex, but has wards that are single sex.

Scotland has no medium or high secure female wards and has some mixed sex low secure forensic wards. I don't know the situation in Ireland, but the demand for secure female wards is likely comparable to the demand for female prisons in Ireland - a small population that is not well equipped to deal with highly dangerous violent offenders.

Ireland has a history of treating women worse than any other Western European country in the name of ideologies/religions why would they change that now

95% of Irish women prisoners are sentenced to less than one year in prison, with 75% of female prisoners in Ireland are sentenced to less than 3 months. The majority of the offences that women prisoners serve sentences for are for shoplifting, handling stolen goods and non payment of fines eg: TV licence, so crimes of poverty. These women also suffer from repeated periods of homelessness, untreated mental illness and various substance abuse issues. Approximately 90% have a history of domestic abuse at the hands of their partners. In light of this these women are some of the most vulnerable people in Irish society. To house these vulnerable women in the same facilities as male bodied prisoners is an affront to their bodily safety and personal dignity.

This year for International Women's Day I wrote to the elected representatives in my area outlining the above and asking they act to protect women, one replied. I got an email back saying these people were sentenced according to their gender identity and they were housed according to this, as is the law, basically "shrug, sure what can you do". The simple truth is Ireland doesn't care about the safety of women, the state has existed for a hundred years and for eighty of those women have been placed in mother and baby homes without their consent, gave birth in horrid conditions and then their babies removed and often illegally placed for adoption again against their mothers consent. This only stopped in the 1990's. Rape in a marriage was not illegal until 1992, the first prosecution was not taken until 2002, so it was legal for a man in my country to rape his wife until 1992. Ireland doesn't care about women, in a few decades we will get some mealy mouthed politician apologising and telling us "lessons have been learned" about housing men in women's prisons, just like the clerical abuse scandal, just like Tuam mother and baby home scandals, just like women dying because they were refused abortion care that was medically necessary. "Lessons were learned" meanwhile another generation of Irish women are abused. I'm ashamed to be Irish today.

I'm not suggesting putting them in a general NHS setting FGS.

I can't find out who the current ones cater to. Rose West etc were in those types of institutions.

I don't know what facilities Ireland has.

Broadmoor is mixed sex.

There's such an apathy at a political level to do anything about this, I despair. If you read the report this article is based on, they mention the Yogakarta principles several times as reference, as though they are some expert guidelines .

As for them being confined for 23 hours a day, yes it must be very difficult, but the alternative is putting them in with women who, given their offending history, would be at risk. The proper alternative would be to have a separate wing for them, or allow them out for longer under supervision - but we are already dealing with underfunding and overcrowding, it is just not a priority.

Self ID law underpins all of this. It needs to be repealed.

Good grief.

TW needs a search? Male officer utters the phrase "I am a woman" and bingo! Validation and same sex searches. Win-win.

InvisibleDragon a friend of mine ended up in the MH clinic at St James' Hospital in Dublin, and shockingly the ward was mixed-sex. There seemed to be no proper safeguarding, no way to keep yourself safe from intrusion while sleeping. My friend's a man but he still found it uncomfortable. It was a ward for short-term patients, I don't know what the story is for longterm, but Ireland really doesn't seem to give a shit about people with psychiatric problems.