BY A FOUR-TO-ONE MARGIN, CANADIANS BELIEVE TRANSGENDER ATHLETES’ PARTICIPATION IN WOMEN’S SPORT IS “UNFAIR”: NEW MLI POLL

I think it would be difficult for some people to speak up for prisoners even though it affects such a substantial number of families (looking at the entire prison and remand population).

This is really interesting. I suspect sports are just more mainstream. Unfortunately few people care about how prisoners are treated even though the vast majority of them will be released and have to reintegrate into society.

I've been following the arguments for some time and my view is that because prisons are largely off the horizon of most people's minds, little attention has been paid to what has been going on, despite the shocking conclusion of the recent High Court judgment.

Sport, on the other hand, is highly visible to all. Sport and the safeguarding of children must count as the heaviest, most obvious and most persuasive of dominoes to fall and once they do, the others will follow. I hope.

Trans Scotland' s motivation for pushing for the inclusion of transwomen into the female prison estate was predicated on their belief that ,if you could get past this hurdle , every other hurdle would then fall.
Perhaps ,if we can get everyone to accept that male athletes have no place in female sport, we can then convince them that there should be no place for any males , whatever their gender identity in female only spaces.

I genuinely believe that the very obvious differences in athletic performances between the sexes will open the eyes of many to the ludicrous state of play where supposedly intelligent people tie themselves up in knots trying to pretend that male athletes who identify as women are just the same as women. This hopefully will bring the plight of female prisoners etc into the light .

I'm firmly of the f off, you're a man now, persuasion*

However, this thread is about a survey on whether it is "fair" for transgender people to take part in female sports. Obviously there is no evidence to show that including any female person, no matter their gender identity is " unfair" to the other participants, unless of course they are taking performance enhancing drugs. However, there is a lot of evidence that including a male person who identifies as a woman is very unfair.

Make their minds up. If being a woman isn't good enough for trans men in life generally, then tough luck if that excludes them from female only sports.

This has become an issue in many women's and lesbian groups, where women (usually butch lesbians) have transitioned but still expect to be accepted as lesbians and women when they want access to the women's/ lesbian community. Indeed, some of us are dealing with women who've gone from lesbian to trans to non-binary and after a period of just being Queer now say they are a transman and expect to be welcome at the monthly lesbian get-together even if they're now Tom and have a goatee. I'm firmly of the f* off, you're a man now, persuasion.

Someone posted me some info on Borderline Personality Disorder and lack of fixed identity seems to be part of it. It does make one wonder...

Like you, I find the attitude of females who insist that they are not women offensive. But I don't think this should prevent them from competing in women's sports (as long as they're not doping with testosterone).

I find lots of views that others hold offensive, and some people appear to find my view that people can't change sex offensive. I don't think any of us should be banned from sport as a result of holding views that others find offensive. Because ultimately, who decides which is the most offensive view which means that that person should be banned?

And if you say that women who want to be men shouldn't be in women's sports, are you also saying that men who want to be women shouldn't play in men's sports?

Usually the argument is that people should compete in the correct sex category regardless of any feelings about 'gender identity' (as long as they comply with anti-doping rules)

Whose argument? Posters on here? It's certainly not the argument of many sporting bodies.

It seems to me exceedingly dishonest of trans men who insist they are men, who make a fuss about any references to anything female relating to childbirth, menstruation etc, to the point of demanding language changes , but apparently can overcome the trauma of being described as a "woman" if they can compete in women's sports.

As to where they can compete? Not my problem.

Make their minds up. If being a woman isn't good enough for trans men in life generally, then tough luck if that excludes them from female only sports.

So do you think they should compete in the men's category? Or not compete at all? Or should there be a separate 'trans' category?

And if 'transmen' should be excluded from women's sports because 'being a woman isn't good enough' for them, should 'transwomen' also be excluded from men's sports because being a man isn't good enough for them? Where should they compete?

Usually the argument is that people should compete in the correct sex category regardless of any feelings about 'gender identity' (as long as they comply with anti-doping rules). I don't think people are normally excluded from their correct sporting category because of any views they hold which some others might find offensive.

This gives hope to Canada. Hope that perhaps the general population will start to see what is going on over there.

Worst. Derail. Ever.

It's not a derail - it's central to the discussion. Those of us in favour of keeping female sporting categories argue for the exclusion of transwomen on the basis that they are male, not on the basis that they are trans.

The younger generations are being brainwashed with gender rubbish from the moment they walk into school, so it might not be surprising that they have a skewed idea of what is fair

Terrifying isn't it. However, it isn't the younger generation who are allowing sports to include male athletes into the female category in spite of all the evidence which shows the unfairness of such inclusion nor is it the younger generation who are teaching children to deny scientific reality in schools.
So why is it happening? Why are women just collateral damage?

Possibly a mixture of all of the above Embarrassing. As soon as you accept that a male person can become a woman by simply identifying as such then you paint yourself into a corner when it comes to including them in formerly female only spaces. Rationality goes out the window.

So why do one out of four respondents to this survey think it is in any way fair?

It would be helpful to know if this is because of:
– ideological principles;
– a misunderstanding about what is involved (assisted by the general level of misinformation propagated by MSM on relevant matters);
– empathy with family or friends and a general sense that being consistent with that mandates that everything would should be done to alleviate their suffering and an assumption that this would be helpful.

Why would anyone think it is fair to include male athletes in female sports, when the whole rationale behind the female category is to allow female athletes to compete safely and fairly and also have some chance of success?

Why would anyone think it is fair to include male athletes in female sports when there isn't a shred of evidence that lowering testosterone in a male body brings its performance level down to the performance level of an average female athlete's body?

So why do one out of four respondents to this survey think it is in any way fair?

There are transmen who compete in women's sport and do not take testosterone for just that reason.

There are lots of medications that preclude competition in sports, so if it comes down to it that affects lots of people besides transmen on testosterone.

Why would any "woman" who has so much contempt for women that they can't bear being called a woman want to compete in women's sport?

Why should any "woman" who has so much contempt for women that they can't bear to be called a woman be allowed to compete in women's sport?

Without getting into the whys and wherefores of why a person who is female may identify otherwise, the bottom line is, because they are a woman, that’s why they should be allowed.