Sex doesn’t matter? Let’s test it then…

If you are in a loud shouty group you cheat and have your cake and eat it as much as possible.

You say gender is fluid when it suits you (self ID permitted), you say gender is not fluid but women/men when it suits you (you want woman's rights and spaces) you say gender is fluid again when the word women would mean women (so chest feeding not breastfeeding is imposed).

It's all about manipulating language so the TA group dominate in every situation. Anyone would think they are led by controlling men who want to put biological women in their place

Nothing wrong with that - it happens to loads of people (my husband for example - junior international, didn’t make it as a senior). It is hard to go from representing your country one week and then not - not because you are not good enough anymore but because a date has passed by. But you dust yourself off and get on with your life. (Dh finished his A levels, went to Cambridge and met me.)

Or you cheat.

Historically, people always knew who the girls were when it came to education opportunities and tweaking the 11+ pass mark by sex to ensure grammar schools didn't ever get girl-heavy. Boys went to grammar school with the same marks that got a girl sent to a secondary modern.

So where girls are performing better, they get a handicap imposed, and where boys and men perform better, we're busily abolishing the category definitions that allowed a level playing field. 🤷🏼‍♀️

And say woman for surrogacy. And get s load of people saying you're a hypocrite.

It's definitely because of homophobia.

OJ and the pn guy have both run into this situation.

LH wouldn't have been able to be smug trying to enter as a man though would he?

They always know what a woman is when they need surrogate and other reproductive services.
Mixing sexes in sport will mean girls won't bother. The argument will then be that they're naturally just not that interested.

Besides I don't believe trans women want to compete against other males or else they wouldn't be pushing to get into women's sport.
Would LH even have qualified as a man?

I know a few people who are absolutely true believers so far as TWAW. They're not men looking to oppress women, either, they are women who think of themselves as very tolerant and progressive. In a different life I always think they'd be missionaries of some kind.

Intersex is a longer running issue and loads of press etc. And more factors involved.

With all this though. I mean if you've got testicles then male.

The fact external appearance of genitals is female is a bit male gaze really I think.

Furthermore, a lot of people like to think they are the sort of person who is able to look past what ordinary, uneducated people assume, and that feeds into it as well.

Ereshkigalangcleg, I agree, very few actually believe that trans woman are really women, but it gives them extra woke brownie points to voice it for some reason. Hopefully for this reason The TWAW mantra will fade into insignificant history when the brigade move on to the next thing.

I don’t think any of them ‘truly believe’ anything of the kind. They know who gives birth and they sure as hell knows what a woman is when they want to fuck one. It just suits them to display this rhetoric to get their woke points online.

Because men would say "See, we told you we were best. Now fuck off back to making porn for us, bearing our babies and cleaning our toilets'.

I don't think there is a furore at olympics level over Intersex runners (more correctly XY androgenised males) athletics in the women's events. They have only been asked to reduce their testosterone level to amounts which are still way above normal female levels. And just for a while before very few events, to boot.

If everyone else is on a bicycle, does it matter what horsepower those on a motorbike have? They're still sucking diesel and benefit from the engine!

Also, there are many male athletes without very deep voices and some aren't so hirsute. I don't think those are the criteria. More the muscle density, lung volume, difference of skeleton (certainly at hip alignment), arm span in relation to body. etc.

Think Mo Farah. Many different events and good body types for that. At each one, these differences will matter.

I really don’t understand the huge furore over intersex runners while at the same time allowing someone who is indisputably male rather than having a disorder of sexual development. Surely the two runners from S Africa would have had less exposure to testosterone than LH given their feminine-sounding voices and absence of facial hair, Adam’s apple etc? I still think there probably needs to be a third category for intersex athletes (especially as it seems to be a pretty common condition given the numbers who have it) but I can’t understand the blatant contradiction in policy.

The thing is, that the people who call us Terfs are arguing from a place where TWAW, so no amount of demonstrable difference between men and women will help - TWAW, some women have penises, what's your point, look - some women are really strong, women rape too, some women are violent. They are already convinced that there is no difference, transwomen are simply 'broadening the bandwidth.'

They know there is a difference. But it's their credo that it doesn't count, it's more important to validate TW. You can't shake them on it and they can't be reasoned with, because it's a faith based position that is more important than reality.

You can sometimes make them look really really stupid to others who are less convinced by showing up hypocrisy and contradictions in their position, but you can't shake their belief that it's morally superior.

'It’s a derail but I think I’d have been against you throwing stones at a cat too.

But I agree with everything the OP says. This is madness.'

Oh no! The stones we had available were only tiny gravel and the distance would have meant it was just a scare tactic really.

Sadly AsTreesWalking you are exactly correct. The people who throw around 'terf' and 'transphobe' truly believe that Laurel Hubbard et al are women, so this line of reasoning is utterly pointless. Why would we talk about Laurel being bigger and stronger, or genetic differences between men and women. The cognative dissonance seems to allow them to be believe that all sex/genetics based advantages disappear in a puff of magic smoke when a man declares themselves a woman. Reasoning won't work as their reply will be that Hubbard is just a stronger woman...

Well seeing as it’s mostly men making this claim, I’d rather they suffer the consequences. Can we ask penis havers to do their share of pregnancy and childbirth now? They’ve been so lazy about it, never trying hard enough to get pregnant.

It will get to the stage all natural body parts will be removed, I mean genitalia etc and everyone Must identify as it, no female or male, can’t have anyone offended can we? (Stupid of me to say this but I’m sick of all this crap, labels everywhere) 🤦‍♀️

The thing is, that the people who call us Terfs are arguing from a place where TWAW, so no amount of demonstrable difference between men and women will help - TWAW, some women have penises, what's your point, look - some women are really strong, women rape too, some women are violent. They are already convinced that there is no difference, transwomen are simply 'broadening the bandwidth.'

Which women do they want to go to prison in greater numbers? Guessing not the ones with penises.
Making prisons mixed sex is a stupid idea but I suspect the number of male prisoners identifying as women would go right back down.

AFF not CIS. I shall be using that.

But I agree with everything the OP says. This is madness.