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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Warrior buried in women's clothes, DMA test

62 replies

Igneococcus · 02/08/2021 06:15

That Finnish warrior buried in women's clothes is a "non-binary person with an extra X chromosome". This is reaching new heights in idiocy:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/633f6690-f2f9-11eb-8f01-2c678acbb979?shareToken=1a9ca6deaed6c83e06e4207040280633

OP posts:
KittenKong · 02/08/2021 21:23

Ancient Egyptians used mirrors. I seem to remember reading that the kohl was used to protect the eyes from the glare of the sun. The wigs were because of the nits. Not vanity but practicality.

LammasFires · 02/08/2021 21:21

@Vanishun

But yes, why assume vanity? Mirrors could be used for lots of things including reflecting light, communicating using flashes, keeping an eye out behind you, etc. etc. They're in most prepper packs and I don't think it's to check your makeup.
There’s an Anglo-Saxon diatribe about how Vikings were seducing good Christian women with the cleanliness of their persons and the washing, combing and grooming of their hair.
KittenKong · 02/08/2021 21:15

We used to joke at home when I was a kid (our house was all mad history and archaeology nuts, will a dark sense of humour) that we would be buried with obscure objects to puzzle future archaeologists. Dad was almost buried with a silver polar bear (who now sits on my kitchen window ledge).

Delphinium20 · 02/08/2021 20:44

Elina Salmela, a postdoctoral researcher from the University of Helsinki, said: “According to current data, it is likely that the individual found in Suontaka had the chromosomes XXY, although the DNA results are based on a very small set of data.”

So they don't know "it is likely".

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/08/2021 20:26

gift! argh

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/08/2021 20:26

@KittenKong

“... new DNA tests suggested that it was a non-binary person with an extra X chromosome.”

Whit? That’s some new fangled DNA test that can declare non binary status...

If there is, what a gist to everyone: us because we can tell if someone is for real, them because they can tell if they are for real...
InspiralCoalescenceRingdown · 02/08/2021 18:53

I can cut her some slack for having to deal with creationists at post-grad level.

I'm don't know if I'm prepared to cut slack anymore. In some ways it's actually worse than creationists, because Roberts' chair is Professor of the Public Engagement in Science. Imagine doing the opposite of your actual job.

KittenKong · 02/08/2021 18:42

“... new DNA tests suggested that it was a non-binary person with an extra X chromosome.”

Whit? That’s some new fangled DNA test that can declare non binary status...

inthesark · 02/08/2021 17:44

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

Could be interesting if we can try to get past our preconceptions and current ways thinking about things… to work out what we can actually deduce from the evidence about how this person who may have had an obvious difference of sexual development was integrated within that specific society. It didn't seem to have a lot of detail about exactly what the person was buried with and how they know what the connotations of those items were in that society. I think it's a problem to use retroactive labels like androgynous and non-binary that have culture-specific meanings for us; it would be better to be more specific and name biological conditions plus the details of the body and the burial and then clearly state what's extrapolation or surmise.
This. I'm not an archaeologist but have read enough to know that there is some interesting work going on in the area, in particular questions about whether gender identity mattered in the past, and whether other identities, such as 'elder' might have been more important.

Although in the end, almost all archaeology (DNA and isotope related stuff excepted) is surmise, and is so often infused with the preoccupations of the present that it tends to tell us more about ourselves than the past. We make it into a shape that feels comfortable, not that is true.

Imnobody4 · 02/08/2021 17:31

'The condition in which males are born with one or more extra X chromosomes is known as Klinefelter syndrome. With its prevalence of 1 in 576 male births, XXY is the most common sex-chromosomal aneuploidy in humans (Nielsen & Wohlert,1991).'

I hadn't realised it was that common.

SerendipityJane · 02/08/2021 16:18

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Alice Roberts has a massive blind spot on this issue. Her arguments are really weak, and when this is pointed out she just blocks everyone and flounces from Twitter accusing people of bullying her.
I can cut her some slack for having to deal with creationists at post-grad level.
ClumpingBambooIsALie · 02/08/2021 15:05

Yeah everything is shiny in Anglo-Saxon lit too. Where you might expect them to talk about the colour of blood, they'd talk about the shininess. Shiny gems, shiny swords, shiny blood. Makes sense in a world full of unshiny stuff I guess.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 02/08/2021 15:02

Going by the literature, shiny was prized by Nordic (Finns are not Nordic, but I'll use that shorthand, ok?) peoples. Mirrors would definitely not have been only for women.

Abhannmor · 02/08/2021 09:46

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

Ya because at no point in human history have manly males ever cared about grooming and appearance Hmm
The non binary Spartans at Thermopylae , combing their hair before the battle Grin
Abhannmor · 02/08/2021 09:41

Vanishun ...don't kings and Queens get to break gender norms anyway? Maybe the exception that proves the rule but it still would have happened.

SerendipityJane · 02/08/2021 07:55

@Vanishun

But yes, why assume vanity? Mirrors could be used for lots of things including reflecting light, communicating using flashes, keeping an eye out behind you, etc. etc. They're in most prepper packs and I don't think it's to check your makeup.
Mirrors were valuable - and that's all the "symbolism" you need. Anyone who gets to be buried with a mirror in those days was clearly someone special.

Nothing - absolutely nothing - we discover in the future will change that fact.

Swords were also fucking valuable - so once again being buried with one had very little to do with the fact they were weapons.

Todays equivalent would be being buried with a barrel of printer ink - even if you aren't a writer.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/08/2021 07:49

Alice Roberts has a massive blind spot on this issue. Her arguments are really weak, and when this is pointed out she just blocks everyone and flounces from Twitter accusing people of bullying her.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 02/08/2021 07:48

Anglo-Saxons were very keen on their combs.

I'm now imagining metrosexual Æthelfriths and Ecgberhts.

ChiefInspectorParker · 02/08/2021 07:44

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ClumpingBambooIsALie · 02/08/2021 07:41

Chopping lines…

Vanishun · 02/08/2021 07:38

But yes, why assume vanity? Mirrors could be used for lots of things including reflecting light, communicating using flashes, keeping an eye out behind you, etc. etc. They're in most prepper packs and I don't think it's to check your makeup.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 02/08/2021 07:36

Ya because at no point in human history have manly males ever cared about grooming and appearance Hmm

Vanishun · 02/08/2021 07:36

Alice Roberts bought the TRA agenda a long time ago didn't she?

ChiefInspectorParker · 02/08/2021 07:34

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ClumpingBambooIsALie · 02/08/2021 07:30

It's always interesting how societies deal with those who can't or won't slot neatly into gendered sex-based roles… every society has to deal with it at some point, some more than others, and the solutions rarely map neatly from one society onto another. I think it's misguided for the paper authors to use the descriptor "non-binary" for this person, as while you could argue that in the literal sense of the word that does appear to be the case, the way we use the word generally is in reference to a culturally-specific phenomenon.