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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some thoughts on trans, the media and society

410 replies

Nefelibata33 · 01/08/2021 01:21

Hello everyone, I'm starting a new thread, cos I posted this message on a thread about Dr Helen Webberley, but people said they didn't want to discuss it, cos the thread was specifically about Dr Webberley. So I thought I would post my message for everyone to see, in a new thread. I think it's worth reading, I would like to discuss things with people. If you want to say something, please do. I will talk to anyone. Abuse me if you want, but I'd prefer if you didn't. I couldn't give a sh*t tbh. Sending love xxx. Here's my original message below

Hi everyone.

Just a post to say something. Firstly, if you are really concerned about big pharma, check that the NHS is in league with big pharma, and they dish out drugs like they're smarties. I have no idea what state you may be in, but you may have experience of this. I find it totally scary that so many people are getting hooked on drugs, cos a doctor prescribed it. This really isn't ok. As an example, a few years ago, they changed the blood sugar reading for which you can be described as diabetic. So more people could be diagnosed as diabetic, and more people could be given diabetic meds, and hey... a GP gets a bonus every time they diagnose someone as diabetic. I think the NHS is great, the nurses who are ready to sacrifice their own lives to help others, like Florence Nightingale. Like my Grandma. Like one of my cousins. But the ones who sit in offices and dish out drugs, they are a real problem.

Why am I saying this? Because doctors will dish out every drug going, even when they have horrendous side effects, make people actually feel worse than they were to begin with. Do we hear anything about this in the media? No. It doesn't sell papers. Any sort of backlash against big pharma? No. Because the media are onside with the mega rich pharmaceutical company directors getting richer and the poor getting poorer, not that the media would say that. Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.

This is the only thing no doctor can prescribe. There are plenty of countries around the world that take a different approach to trans people, and it's not so difficult to get hormones. With no disasters taking place. Keira Bell got a lot of attention. One person that made a mistake, amongst the thousands of trans kids who are happy as they are. One person. The media made a big deal of it.

Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group? The Sun carried out a massive racist hate campaign against Raheem Sterling a few years ago. Britain's most prominent black footballer, it wasn't racist at all. You saw the racist abuse thing after England didn't win the Euros. It's absolutely shameful that so many people think it's OK to send someone death threats, JUST BECAUSE THEIR SKIN IS A DIFFERENT COLOUR. Encouraged by the Sun. The tabloids are the cancer of this country, our society would be much better without them I think, but we're stuck with them. They killed Princess Diana. A woman who was in the prime of her life, so happy, and bang... killed by the tabloids. There was a massive outpouring of emotion, but did it stop anyone from buying the tabloids? No. Nobody learns. I've read on this site, all this woke this woke that. Prince Harry has been accused of being woke. Cos he married a mixed race woman, and he doesn't want her to end up like his Mum. Think about it. Not "woke", a loving human being.

I don't get the woke thing. It's just a word that has been invented to describe someone who cares for social justice, and is right on. Can someone please explain to me why that's so bad? I really don't get it. Why are kind people a problem? Could it be, that there are just a lot of people who aren't very kind?

Back onto the media, they are totally corrupt, lying bullshtters. GB News is really struggling, so to boost ratings, they decided to attack the Trans community. To boost ratings! I guess that's more entertaining for the sort of people who watch it. I am now going to say something. I don't care who you are, but just realise this. Trans people are being treated just like gays were 20 or 30 years ago. The media do this to sell papers, and make money. Rupert Murdoch is Australian, he's an immigrant, but his papers bang on about immigration. Fcking hypocrite. The demonisation of Trans people is just part of a large scale war by the right wing/neo nazi movement. Are any of you reading this wondering now? It's part of a nazi thing. Caring for children is one thing, but demonising a group of people who just happened to be so unlucky that they were born in the wrong body is another. Have a heart, people. No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops... This is the truth. You don't get the truth in the papers. The papers don't have anyone's best interest at heart, they are just trying to make money.

I've said what I needed to say. I came on Mumsnet cos I'd heard of it, and I wanted to see how people think. I've received quite a bit of abuse off people, quite nasty, and some questions about my level of intelligence. Don't worry, I'm intelligent, and I won't stoop to the level of insulting someone else for being different, or having different opinions.

I am a feminist. There, I said it. I would die to protect a woman. So how come so many so called feminists are against Trans women? Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men. No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.

If anyone wants to comment on anything I wrote, feel free. Make it intelligent, no gratuitous abuse please X

OP posts:
Chickenyhead · 01/08/2021 04:45

It does seem like such a shame you know.

You wrote out a long post and I and many other posters went to such lengths to provide reasoned responses.

If you find my post too difficult to answer, or challenge, perhaps you have evidence to answer some of the other responses?

Otherwise I wonder what the purpose of posting is? I thought you intended to convince us with hard hitting evidence and facts.

Seems that I am incorrect.

Chickenyhead · 01/08/2021 04:35

I do so apologise for exhausting you, that must be difficult.

Yes, all good people are lovely I agree. Labels are irrelevant in 99% of cases. Everyone can get along respecting Everyone else's choices. Agreed.

But sometimes a Muslim wants to go to a mosque, sometimes a Christian wants to attend a church. Sometimes sports people want to play with people in the same league of ability. And sometimes women by sex need to be protected from men by sex, including Transwomen. That is fair. That is just.

And for anyone reading this thread, please take the medical advice your medical professionals give you. They are qualified and if you doubt them, ask for a second opinion. Please do not take OP well meaning advice without knowing what the consequences could be.

GNCQ · 01/08/2021 04:34

How can you tell which people with a penis are "good" in your female space or not? Do they come with a label on their foreheads?

So many questions.

I hope you're okay.

GNCQ · 01/08/2021 04:32

Sorry to hear you have diabetes.

Do "good" people with a penis put themselves in female only spaces?

Do "good" people prescribe drugs to gender non conforming prepubescent children that are off label and known to cause long term health damage?

Nefelibata33 · 01/08/2021 04:20

Hi everyone. Me again.

I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes a few years ago. I had been fine before, maybe marginal, but they moved the goalposts so to speak, and I ended up being told I was diabetic. I got a diabetic nurse talking to me like I was an inferior human, so condescending. They were desperate to push the meds on me. I refused. I just ate healthily and exercised, and it was OK. If any of you reading this, maybe yourselves, or loved ones, have been offered meds, F*CKING REFUSE THEM. Unless it's absolutely necessary, of course. Meds are really good for some cases. But the whole big pharma thing is sickening. As I said in my previous post, the NHS is fantastic, we all know that. But Doctors are way too keen to get people on meds. None of it is healthy, it's really dangerous, and the motives are dangerous too. The NHS is great, but in league with big pharma. When your doctor offers you something, REFUSE. That's your right, stand up for yourself.

As for oestrogen, it may be easy to get it if you're biologically female, just try getting it if you're not. Impossible, almost. The papers like to spread these scare stories about how kids are having hormones rammed down their necks by doctors who will dish out hormones on a whim. Not true. Don't believe what the telegraph or anyone else says. It's all bollocks, believe me.

I said I would respond to everyone's comments, but chickenyhead, you absolutely exhaust me. I felt drained after I'd read your post. Not trying to insult you, I guess we are just different. I would reply to it, but here's this... women, men, trans women, trans men, intersex. Does it matter? As long as we are all good people?

OP posts:
GNCQ · 01/08/2021 04:03

Chickenyhead Here is CharleyParleys post:

Thank you for that

GNCQ · 01/08/2021 03:58

No group should be seen as incapable of harm because of membership of that group.

People are people. All groups can and do contain individuals capable of all sorts of things.

Well I mean apart from newborns etc

My newborn certainly caused harm to me! 😂

Igmum · 01/08/2021 03:47

Great post by CharleyParley, thank you so much for this. I hope the OP reads it, follows the links and thinks about it

Chickenyhead · 01/08/2021 03:39

Here is CharleyParleys post:

Nefelibata33

Puberty blockers aren't damaging. They just prevent the onset of puberty, it just gives someone who's trans time before the onset of something that they really don't want to happen.

I don't think adults who aren't trans have the right to tell kids who are trans what they can or can't do.

I despair really. It's not about protecting children ultimately. That's just an excuse for a load of unnecessary hatred. In reality, it's just that lots of people don't like trans people. I wish people would come out and say it, just be honest. It's irrational hatred

*This is a statement betraying such profound ignorance I can only echo a previous poster: I am embarrassed for you.

If you're not too busy accusing strangers on the internet of hatred, I urge you to read up on GnRH analogues (only called puberty blockers when used in pediatric medicine), their history, the deaths they caused, including in children and the downright irresponsible way in which the FDA continues to ignore tens of thousands of reports of serious adverse side effects of the drug. Between 2013 and 2019, that's more than 46,000 including over 6000 deaths in the US alone. The FDA itself on investigating these reports (and other reports concerning different drugs) has publicly stated several times that it estimates that only between 1 and 10% of serious adverse side effects are ever reported to the FDA, so the true number of people damaged by GnRH analogues is likely more than ten times larger than the known figures.

Please note what this is a discussion of the facts of giving puberty blockers to children with precocious puberty or stunted growth. Objections to their use in these children has nothing whatsoever to do with hatred, irrational or otherwise and everything to do with preventing harm coming to children from a medical treatment.

Puberty blockers aren't damaging.

This is an insidious lie. It goes hand in hand with two other insidious lies:

Puberty blockers have been used in children with precocious puberty for decades without problems.

and

The safety of puberty blockers used in children has been very well researched and there are no longterm side effects.

For the truth we have to look to the US, where thousands of women who received the GnRH analogue Lupron to treat precocious puberty or ensure a taller stature are desperately trying to raise awareness of the debilitating, life-limiting longterm side effects of the drug.

By now, most of us here on Mumsnet know about the effect GnRH analogues have on bone health, causing brittle bones which has caused paralysis in cases where the spine was particularly damaged by the drug as well as incontinence. Most of us have heard about the chronic, debilitating pain puberty blockers caused in the young patients and now adult child patients.

What's less known is that GnRH analogues are extremely powerful neural function modulators, also causing debilitating mental health issues, including severe depression, personality disorders, suicidality, anxiety and other mood disorders.

The EU completed a review of mental health issues caused by GnRH-analogues in 2010. Since then warnings about the drugs causing depression and suicides have had to be added to the patient leaflets in the EU.

In the 28 years since licensing the drug, the FDA has carried out several safety reviews of Lupron, acknowledging its dangerous side effects in all patient groups for whom the drug is used, but it is unwilling to withdraw the licence. (If you know anything about how the FDA goes about licensing drugs, you'll know the process is neither transparent nor as thorough as it should be.)

After the company that developed Lupron was forced to enter into evidence all studies it conducted on the efficacy of the drug when used in women with endometriosis, Dr David Redwine analysed the raw data and found that the FDA had only been provided with summaries that misrepresented the findings and omitted data from patients who were adversely affected. When he submitted a 300-page report to the FDA it did not dispute his findings. A year after Dr Redwine's submission it merely published a response saying no regulatory action necessary.

In 2012, a law proposal in New York was tabled to prohibit the prescription of the drug without including a warning on the bottle stating that it could cause death, heart attacks, diabetes and seizures.

Given the immense commercial interests connected to this drug, which makes more than 600 million dollars annually in the US alone, it is almost impossible to get that licence withdrawn. And not just in the US. The 2010 EU report for instance is almost entirely redacted in order to protect those "commercial interests."

Here is Dr Redwine's analysis of the data btw.

So, yes, puberty blockers are indeed damaging and they have horrific side effects (just to add a few more: causing cancer, gastro-intestinal diseases, heart diseases, lung diseases, feral malformations, ovarian hyper stimulation syndrome, polycystic ovariansyndrome and so on). And it doesn't matter whether it's Lupron or Triptorelin (branded as Trelstar, Decapeptyl, Gonapeptyl), Goserelin (branded as Zoladex), Histrelin (branded as Vantas, Supprelin), Nafarelin (branded as Synarel) or Buserelin (branded as Suprefact, Suprecor). Lupron is merely the best known because most sold of the lot. All of them have a known adverse event profile. That's because GnRH analogues are bloody dangerous drugs listed as "Hazardous" for HCPs handling them btw, that cause a lot of life-long, debilitating and often disabling side effects.

So much for not damaging and used without problems. Now a quick foray into how well researched their safety is in children. In a development that should surprise no one, they're not well researched at all. Available studies are sparse, subject numbers are usually in the single digits. Studies frequently omit data from child patients with adverse reactions (or as in the case of children who died while receiving Lupton for precocious puberty, the study authors declare no connection between death and drug without providing any supporting evidence for such a declaration).

This is a well known problem in drug trials generally, owed in no small part to the conflict of interest that arises from having the drug company seeking to sell the drug fund and organise its safety trials.

The situation is so dire that in one paper I read recently, one study author researching treatment options for precocious puberty lamented the absolute dearth of reliable studies into the safety of GnRH analogues when used in children.

There is no comprehensive body of research into the safety of these drugs when given to children for precocious puberty or stunted growth. It does not exist in anywhere near the volume that it needs to to prove safety. Everyone assumes it does, because the drug is widely subscribed.

Lots of information about the dangers of Lupron can be found on this website:

lupronvictimshub.com/index.html

Some patient and parent testimonies are here:

www.hormonesmatter.com/lupron-precocious-puberty-parents-patients-speak/

Looking into this horror show of drugs however at least explains why the use of puberty blockers in children diagnosed with gender dysphoria has not been shown to improve mental health outcomes.

Because these drugs cause mental health problems. Several patient and parent accounts in the link above describe children who turned suicidal, some as young as 8, after being put on these drugs for precocious puberty.

We are constantly confronted with the claim that children diagnosed with gender dysphoria must be given puberty blockers because they are so severely depressed, even suicidal that not to do so is hateful and unjustified.

How do you justify giving drugs proven to cause depression and suicidality in child patients to children who are already depressed and suicidal?*

Chickenyhead · 01/08/2021 03:30

@Nefelibata33

say what you like
I did.

Thank you for posting.

Nefelibata33 · 01/08/2021 03:28

say what you like

OP posts:
Chickenyhead · 01/08/2021 03:08

As an example, a few years ago, they changed the blood sugar reading for which you can be described as diabetic.
2 of my kids are T1 diabetic as was my Ex. It hasn't changed in the UK in the last 16 years at least.

a GP gets a bonus every time they diagnose someone as diabetic
Proof please.

Because the media are onside with the mega rich pharmaceutical company... Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.
Firstly, Big Pharma is an American phenomenon. The drug companies are not based in the UK. Both of those drugs are available in the UK for over 16s. It is inappropriate to give such drugs to children.

There are plenty of countries around the world that take a different approach to trans people, and it's not so difficult to get hormones.
How do you know that no disasters are taking place given that in your eyes the entire media is corrupt and the medical profession is controlled by big pharma? What evidence are you basing your conclusions on please?

Keira Bell got a lot of attention. One person that made a mistake, amongst the thousands of trans kids who are happy as they are. One person. The media made a big deal of it.
KB did not make any mistake. She was a child. Her parents and medical professionals made huge mistakes. There is lots of actual evidence that puberty blockers are neither effective, nor harmless. See CharleyParleys post referenced above.

Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group?
The media has always been biased, which is why there are a wide selection of rags. I don't believe, either that, the majority of media outlets are anti-trans in the UK, nor that forum members here rely on media sources for their facts.

You saw the racist abuse thing after England didn't win the Euros. It's absolutely shameful that so many people think it's OK to send someone death threats, JUST BECAUSE THEIR SKIN IS A DIFFERENT COLOUR. Encouraged by the Sun.
I haven't seen anything but deep shame for how some England fans behaved. It certainly has not been glorified here.

They killed Princess Diana. A woman who was in the prime of her life, so happy, and bang... killed by the tabloids.
Wasn't her driver drunk?

I don't get the woke thing. It's just a word that has been invented to describe someone who cares for social justice
Yes, it used to mean that indeed and I would have described myself as woke. But like so many other words it has been corrupted to mean something quite different now. Now it implies a somewhat unhinged following of progressive tropes without critical thinking or evidence. I have no idea who changed the meaning or why, like so many other words, like woman.

Trans people are being treated just like gays were 20 or 30 years ago.
No, they really aren't.. most media is pro-trans anti GC. They refer to transwomen as women, they report how fantastic it is for a transwoman to compete in women's sports. The big difference between the LBG movement and the T movement is that LGB didn't take rights away from anyone else to secure their rights. There was absolutely no risk associated with LBG people. Transwomen, who are men by sex, want to enter women's spaces by demand. Take control of what the word woman means. Transwomen offend at the same rate as all men by sex do. There is a reason men are not welcome in women's spaces and that includes men who identify as being female.

It's part of a nazi thing. Caring for children is one thing, but demonising a group of people who just happened to be so unlucky that they were born in the wrong body is another. Have a heart, people.
The nazis experimented on children extensively. In the most heinous, disgusting manner. Indeed it would be nazi territory if we started using innocent children as guinea pigs in some sick social experiment. So no, children need safeguarding from unproven medical experimentation based on a socially constructed ideology.

No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops.
Transwomen offend at the same rate as all types of man. Fact. Women who have been violently gang raped do not want to be in refuges, rape crisis, with men by sex. Sorry you cannot have the humanity to consider how horrifically awful expecting that is. I pity you. Consideration appears to flow in one direction.

So how come so many so called feminists are against Trans women?
Feminists who are GC are pro- women by sex. We believe in sex based rights, not gender ideology, which ignores the inherent biological differences between the sexes. Pro-women.

Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men.
See this is not true. Transwomen are men by sex. They commit rape at the same rate as all men. I don't want to be alone in the toilet with a strange man. I would rather wet myself every single day. Because I get severe PTSD alone with men I don't know, even if feminine looking. I matter too, not just you.

No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.
Who can self ID, using just one sentence and then go wherever they like. Those shitbag men are not above saying a few words to get at women. That type of man will do anything. Why make it easier still? Because women don't count to people like you. It doesn't matter to you that 1 in 50 male inmates in prison now identify as women and want to move in to women's prisons, many of whom are convicted rapists and paedophile.
It doesn't matter to you because you don't think about women whatsoever. Only your specific definition of woman. Please detail what one is, because I don't know anymore.

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 02:42

I find the position that-

Self ID must always be respected. A woman is anyone who says they are one.

It's impossible for any trans person to harm anyone.

The problem is men and not transwomen.

No man would ever say I'm s woman to get into female spaces

Startlingly naive.

AfternoonToffee · 01/08/2021 02:37

Do you actually believe a Trans woman is going to rape you in the toilets? NEWS! Trans women don't hurt or kill women, MEN DO. Trans women are not men. No Trans woman wants to hurt you. It's just the sort of fcked up shtbag men that want to hurt you.

So Karen White? So is KW a trans women or a shitbag man? Cos KW would say they are a trans woman, but KW hurt other women so therefore must be the latter, but it is transphobic to say that and...

I really must try and fall asleep.

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 02:12

Will OP be back?

OP I always have worries about posters who walk into what they see as the lions den like this.

Are you ok?

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 02:11

'some docs often get alarm bells when a big bloke who clearly lifts weights asks for steroids '

I didn't know steroids were just testosterone!
Interesting.

DH is a massive bloke as well. The idea that his testosterone levels mean he has physiological advantage over a random standard woman with same age lifestyle etc is. Really really silly.

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 02:08

Good point sour-

My DH has testosterone on the NHS after they randomly saw it was vvv low on bloods for something else.

I have a lot of views on this topic! Not for here though.

The good news is that according to many sports bodies including IOC he's essentially a woman.

Well that's a bit of a kick in the teeth isn't it :/

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 02:04

'They are not dangerous to anyone, the women's toilets, shelters, changing rooms in clothes shops... This is the truth. You don't get the truth in the papers'

What about
Govt stats
FOIs
Statements by prison governors etc
Individual accounts

And anyway.

If we don't get the truth from any news outlets then. Do you mean about everything? Or just some topics?
What about smaller more independent outlets?

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 01:58

In the end I find the argument inconsistent.

The NHS are in the pay of big pharma to dish out drugs.
Why not hormone meds to trans people then? Very lucrative. I can see no reason not to.

Is it because big pharma and / or GPs are secret neo Nazis? And that's more important than cash?
Or because big pharma/ the NHS are being influenced by eg the sun and other tabloids? Most pharmaceutical companies are not based in the UK. Why would the British tabloids output be consumed and swallowed by massive pharmaceutical companies in eg USA or Germany?

SourAppleChew · 01/08/2021 01:53

Is there a type of drug doctors aren't allowed to dish out? Yes, oestrogen or testosterone.'

This isn’t true.

I’m on testosterone replacement therapy for a hormonal issue that put my natural testosterone in the 85-100 yo bracket when in my early 30s. It did need a lot of hoop jumping but my doc said I’d probs have been given it more freely in a gender reassignment context and that some docs often get alarm bells when a big bloke who clearly lifts weights asks for steroids - they assume you’re abusing them, hence the low natural readings etc (shutdown of natural endocrine systems through androgen abuse).

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 01:53

' I would die to protect a woman'

Again this is a very broad statement.

Would you die to save a woman like rose West? One of the nuns in the Magdalene laundries? Any woman you have never met? Have no idea about? Would you die to save a woman in Syria?

It's the third man conversation isn't it!

Can post the bit if anyone interested!

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 01:50

'. No transgender person wants to hurt you, or your children. They are not dangerous to anyone,'

No group should be seen as incapable of harm because of membership of that group.

People are people. All groups can and do contain individuals capable of all sorts of things.

Well I mean apart from newborns etc.

What is your reasoning behind your assertion that NO person with a trans ID, anywhere in the world, now or in the future. Is incapable of committing certain types of crime?

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 01:46

'just like gays were '

Gays?!

rabbitwoman · 01/08/2021 01:45

Hello!

Yes, I was on that previous thread.

You seem to have a very strong bias towards allowing children access to these puberty blocking drugs. I wonder if you read the amazing post on the previous thread about the actual known side effects of those drugs, based on evidence and research - here is a link:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4288795-Helen-Webberley?pg=22

The post was at 17:06 by Charleyparley and really explains it very well. Also on that page, a post about the investigative reporting by the telegraph into GenderGP and how young girls were able to get hold of these drugs without a lot of trouble or proper counselling.

So what's your thoughts on this? Evidence, facts, setting out very comprehensivly the huge problems many on this site see with this current practise. If you are seeking to dissuade many of us from our positions, this is what you will have to engage with. Feelings, wild accusations and talking about Princess Diana won't do.... What about the EVIDENCE.....

NiceGerbil · 01/08/2021 01:45

'Would it be wrong if I said that the media in this country have an axe to grind against any minority group? '

Not sure of the link but yes some do and have been that way forever.