GC newbie

Ask people about whether inclusivity is more important than women's safety.

Also ask why nobody is talking about trans men being included in sport?

And this is from women who purport to be feminists, and to support vulnerable women.

I think many people view rights through the lense of vulnerability, rather than equality. Women need rights because they are vulnerable, therefore vulnerable = women and trans women are more vulnerable.

The solution to vulnerability is ‘empowerment’ and girl power. Happily, these things place responsibility on women, and don’t require anything from anyone else. That would be awkward and possibly ‘unkind’. It’s also unkind to question what words mean.

Ironically, these ideas that rights are a consolation prize for being vulnerable and that women should just keep quiet have been around for a long time.

The difference is we used to call them right wing.

I think the World Rugby decision is a good place to start. They have examined all the scientific evidence and concluded that male bodies in rugby endangers women. Ask people about whether inclusivity is more important than women's safety.

😘😘

I doubt this is an echo chamber either. Strangely enough, people discuss many aspects of gender here and they go and read information at the source. What they don’t do is feel ‘unsafe’ reading that source information and have to have some influencer present a usually biased or false view aimed at creating misinformation that then gets spread.

But crack on posting supportive posts to the OP. I am glad she will be reassured that she is what she thinks she is.

I am just correcting the misinformation that this is an echo chamber. A term usually used to bully women to be silent.

It's easy to target women. Men are used to it. They project their hatred on to us for not wanting them in our spaces.

Please don't take it in. I'm not Muslim and won't pray, but that doesn't make me islamaphobic.

It's just a way to silence women and make people too scared to call out your self entitled, unreasonable demands.

It's not common amongst most trans, just the loudest, most offensive ones.

People who believe that women are disproportionately inclined to being bigots, are themselves bigots.

If they're using patronising misogynistic language to insult you it's because they don't have an actual argument.

I'd personally start thinking about trans men (as they are usually forgotten) and questioning whether things your friends propose actually help or hinder trans men.
Eg - prisons divided by gender instead of sex - would this be harmful to trans men? Why? Do trans men and trans women always want the same policies as each other when it comes to sex vs gender?

Should trans men be pressurised into removing body parts or should they be free to think that of course men can have breasts, feminine features etc?

You are what you think you are love, which is why you are here in the echo chamber 😬

Some women don’t want to admit that. And I guess maybe some men don’t want to point that out for fear of sounding sexist.

Try this

Another thing to think about is how to acknowledge that women are different. That's a real block for some, because the last couple of civil rights movements in living memory (sexuality and race) to a large extent were based on "we're all the same, really", and defeating false claims of difference. Whereas now we see problems from people pretending men and women aren't different.

Inclusion for women relies a lot on acknowledging the difference - whether it be in athletic ability for sport, or risks in prisons etc.

(Some good stuff about that from Jane Clare Jones and Helen Joyce in this interview)

I’ve found a good entry point is to talk about the unintended consequences of a drive for inclusion.

So it isn’t about trans at all - it’s about the very small minority that would abuse the situation e.g. in women’s prisons or safe spaces. And therefore those that are at more risk now which then brings in the physicality of a women’s sport like boxing.

That sets up a good conversation about not putting people at more risk for another group being safe. So we need checks and balances and a debate about the situation.

Obviously there is a LOT more to it but it has made some of the people who I’ve talked about think about the lack of debate as bad thing.

Yes, for sure, encourage questions.

'What is a woman' is a good one.

or: 'What does a woman share with a transwoman, in what way is a transwoman a woman?'

Or: 'should all spaces and sports be mixed sex'?

Or: 'Should women be allowed to meet and discuss their rights, even if people disagree with what they're saying?'

Or: 'Are rape and death and violence threats okay if you disagree with what someone is saying?'

Your true friends will know that you are a kind and thoughtful person who cares about equality, so try not to take your recent experience to heart. As pp have said, having one to one conversations is better when discussing a nuanced subject like this.

Ask your friends leading questions that encourage them to think it through for themselves. Some of the facts are so shocking that people might think you are exaggerating until they actually do their own research.

Men are never asked to move over. It boils down to that.

The goalposts about what is transphobic constantly change, so as people have already said, worry less about staying inside somebody else's narrow definitions and think for yourself.

It's bollocks, btw

Prepare to be called a right wing fundamentalist Christian and a Stepford wife.

It may be an unavoidable charge, I'm afraid.

Practically, I'd advise, if you can, to make sure you're as well-versed in the issues as you can be, then try to speak to people in-person and one-on-one. The social dynamics in a group can impact how they respond. But, if they can see your face, hear your voice, and it's a private conversation, then that might help. You could give them something to read either in advance or afterwards (and then perhaps re-discuss). It won't work with everyone, and you might still lose friends, but it can be better than social media or texts. Remember that if your social media is very hostile, you can also do quite a bit of activism to support women without it being visible on a timeline, for example writing letters, responding to surveys/petitions/consultations and contributing to causes.

I'd say a realistic goal in "coming out" as gender critical may not be to immediately convince the other person, but rather to encourage dialogue, and to think a little more deeply, i.e. "I don't need you to completely agree with me, but I need you to understand that this topic is important to me: this is what I think and why. I'd like us to be able to talk about it like grown-ups, but if you decide we can't discuss it, fine. I just need you to know this is my position - in other words, I side with those women who are being monstered in the media."

If nothing else, you're leading by example. Even if you get a hostile response now, you may be giving someone else a reason to pause before they start slagging of prominent women - because now they know someone in their real life, a friend, who thinks the same. Perhaps a bit further down the road, when they're more ready, some of those people will feel they have greater permission to question this, too.

The final point: try to find like-minded women, ideally in real life. This is enormously helpful. She may be a friend who you speak to and responds "oh thank you for saying something, I've been thinking the same!" Or if you can (and restrictions allow), other ideas could be attending feminist/women's gatherings that understand these issues (for example, the FiLiA Conference in October) or connecting with a local group that you may be able to get involved in.

If it helps OP hete is a list of things that are transphobic

Spoiler alert - everything is

wingsoverscotland.com/everything-is-transphobic/

When you are accused by the so-called progressive left of being transphobic, remember this article about how the left aligned themselves with the Paedophile Information Exchange in the 1970s:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26352378

It takes courage to stand up against the crowd. But when you're proved right, all these people who are calling you transphobic will suddenly go very quiet.

OP, welcome!

It is very hard not to be labelled a trans phobe. Some transwomen are even abused for agreeing that places like prisons should be single sex. They are called the derogatory term “truscum”.

I thought I had seen it all when a TRA tweeted that a little girl who saw an exposed, semi erect penis should in a purportedly single sex space should “not have stared at people’s genitalia”.

So there we have it. Unless you are happy for little girls to be in a jacuzzi next to a naked person with a semi erect penis, some people will say that you are transphobic. The only thing the penis person has to do is to say that they are female.

I wouldn't worry about the labels OP - that says more about the person wishing to stop you voicing your opinion than about you. Fwiw I have talked to 100s of people about this in real life and the only ones who have branded me a transphobe/TERF are (sadly) my own children who have drunk the Kool Aid at school.