Surgeons advertise procedures to free non binary people of all genitals

I'm sorry you have had those experiences and I'm sorry you feel that way, Wingless. Are you able to access support?

Please don't shoot me down; just offering a glimpse into a mindset. So, I do not identify as a man for sure, and I love girly stuff. However, honestly, if I could have my breasts and lower region just cut off, erased, I would. Not saying it's good, but I'm sure many feel the same. Also, before all this hype, when I was much younger, because I was so skinny, people around me, including drs, literally bluntly told me shit like "you are a woman, you need breasts." Like THEY were upset I didn't have breasts (also btw my family genetics would preclude me from ever having large breasts w/o surgery or morbidly obese) because in THEIR minds I did not look like a "woman."

I think a lot of this is fallout from previous generations' strict mindset on sex, gender stereotypes. I was constantly told, you need more breasts, you're a woman. Actually I literally would rather be in a child body or just have literally no breasts, nipples, below region or equipment. I'm not saying it's healthy or normal. I personally think whatever you wanna do to your body you should be able to. You aren't your body, you live IN a body. Now the encroaching on women's spaces is NOT good. But as far as each individual's body choices, it is their body.

Interesting though, when I was young I was berated for not wanting breasts. Nowadays, I could've had em off by next week!

Society should get better at helping people be ok in the body they are in. I think this is where a lot of this stems from. We are shamed from the moment we can talk, even before, day in, day out. I think it's been so much for decades that this is the natural conclusion of poor humans' bodies being attacked and shamed that everyone is gonna be identifying out of their body and/or changing it. I have no solutions. Just offering a perspective from someone who hates their body but not going the meds or surgery route cuz I hate drs and also it could be something worse and you can't go back. Plus I am not my body; it's some disgusting meat sack I'm imprisoned in, but someday you die and are free, so that is my comfort.

This is absolutely hideous, and harmful.

I could well have gotten myself caught up with being non-binary if I was born in 2000 and not 1980, I wasn’t particularly into ‘feminine’ clothes or fashion and I wasn’t particularly interested in anybody sexually apart from celeb crushes … and I was adamant I didn’t want children. Then when I was 26 I met my DH. And everything changed. And i am sure that is the case for many people.

How are we encouraging this labelling of people and then giving them life altering surgery to fit that label ??

But I thought that genitals were irrelevant to gender?

and if you buy into the idea that genitals = gender it makes its own kind of sense

but... Gender ideologists always claim your gender has nothing to do with genitals everything to do with what's in your head, cry "stop reducing people to genitals" etc.
Now it's the opposite? So your gender identity is actually linked to genitals? But... I thought... We were bigots for.... I basically give up.

What the hell happened to "first, do no harm"?

Why keep your genitals "down there." Why not put them on your arm. Or your head. I mean as long as we're making shit up, why should we limit ourselves? Instead of being nonbinary by cutting off both of your boobs, just cut off one, like the amazons did. It's all so bizarre.

Well, it's logical, in the way that gender ideology has its own very warped logic, and if you buy into the idea that genitals = gender it makes its own kind of sense.

But aren’t we also always told that any gender can have any genitals, and having a “genital preference” is hateful and transphobic?

Someone make it make sense!

I don't know. In Tudor times all children were raised like sexless larvae clothing wise. Girls and boys were sorted education wise later and then finally by adult clothing.

Yet they certainly knew who was a girl and who was a boy.

We're gender critical gender neutral parents. I don't know how that generally plays out as we're fairly unique(and son always has the nicest jeans because we buy from the girls section!)

TheSlayer

I do thin it's interesting that a lot of the mums I've known who really bought into gender ideology were also super into raising kids without gendered toys or clothes. So maybe there is some sort of link or logic that can connect them.

The conclusion that I've come to is that children, as they come to understand themselves as sexed beings, go through stages of seeing that as concretised in social ways - clothing, or names, or pronouns help them at these early stages sort out who belongs in what category. At this stage they often make over-generalisations or see things that are cultural, rather than physical, as permanent.

Over time through maturation and experience they refine their earlier ideas and begin to understand what is essential and what isn't. This parallels other learning processes in children, and it doesn't mean that because a four year old thinks boys can't have long hair, that they will grow up to think the same thing.

From a parental perspective we help kids realise the difference but it doesn't actually require that we rail against all cultural markers of sex to make that happen, or that we have to work to undermine them. But in terms of kids understanding their own sex as permanent and physical,
it's normal that at times they concretise these visible markers and relate their sense of being a boy or girl to them.

So I have wondered - if we make it very difficult for kids to form these concretisations at stages when that is normal, can that make it harder to form a sense of themselves as male and female? Maybe not in a society where the differences were more evident in other ways, but i ours it's not so much. Plus we now have all kinds of weird ideas floating around that may be counterproductive.

It does seem like a potentially bad mix to me.

Stereotyped relative that should say.

I hope so, @ArabellaScott.
But have seen enough posts from worried mums who raised their children without stereotypes to worry me.
And my very stereotyped from birth is currently identifying as a boy(probably to opt out of beauty pagents) so it seems no children are immune.

People should just be grateful to have healthy, working bodies. Some people aren't lucky enough to have that and it makes me sad and angry to see people throwing away the gift of nature a healthy body is.

This has been happening for a while. Lots of fetishes around being a eunuch or "smooth" or nullo.

I think these ones fit more neatly into the category that includes people getting surgery to make themselves look like a cat though, or really extreme tatooing/implants, rather than gender dysphoria.

The world is full of people with very specific interests.

I think raising a child with a very clear understanding of the difference between sex and gender is less confusing, Slayer. My kids both know - in basic terms - that their bodies are their sex (boy/girl) and that their clothes/hair/toy preferences have absolutely no bearing on that. They have a rough but clear understanding that society tends to tell girls and boys that they ought to act certain ways ('some people say girls should wear pink all the time') and that adults can be straight, lesbian, gay or bisexual.

It doesn't seem complicated to me. I just try to encourage my children to look after their bodies, while also be accepting of themselves and respectful of others.

This sort of thing actually makes me question raising my son without stereotypes. We dress him in all colours and don't restrict him to stereotypically male activities.
It worries me there's a danger that not enforcing stereotypes could send my child down a confusing path. If others suggest he's unusual for not being a stereotype will he be more susceptible to people saying he needs to change his body? As someone with a disability I can see him buying into the wrong body narrative.

As a parent it's worrying.
I imagine that it's designed to be that way.

I can't get my head around why you would want both!

However the idea of just having your genitals removed and everything being smoothed off so to speak could actually be a viable option for older people with gender dysphoria.

Well, it's logical, in the way that gender ideology has its own very warped logic, and if you buy into the idea that genitals = gender it makes its own kind of sense.

We've seen a lot of 'trans kids' - are there many 'non-binary' kids? Parents looking to have their bodies adjusted accordingly? Aligning children with their own inner non-binary essence by permanent puberty blocking was something I've seen suggested.

There’s also the Zero Depth Vaginoplasty, which gives the external appearance without any, erm, internal component

The early 21st century will go down in history as an era when medical ethics went out of the window.

Madness lays this way!

[quote FlyPassed]@Deliriumoftheendless yes! Such a good film but incredibly unsettling. When it came out I thought it was fiction[/quote]
Yes, I didn’t think it would be taken as the way forward for plastic surgeons.

O brave new world that has such people in 't. Sigh.Why have we come to hate ourselves so much ? I had thought the Transhumanist stuff was a far fetched conspiracy theory. Not so sure now.