Shameful, incoherent, poorly referenced, completely biased piece of 'journalism' from the Guardian

Focusing on numbers of attacks/assaults, is also a red herring.

Men and women should have the right to know whether or not they are entering a single sex or mixed sex space before they do so.

We don't need to wait and see who gets assaulted or not to know that that's just the right thing to do.

If I see a sauna or spa is mixed sex I can make the choice for myself whether or not to go in. If they advertise as a space only for women and then I find men sharing that space with intact genitalia... it boggles my mind that this is even up for debate. That is wrong.

The language we use matters.

I don't need to wait to see if I'm assaulted by a male stranger to know that I don't want to sit next to his naked body in a spa. It doesn't matter what he does. I don't want that and have a right to know what kind of space I'm entering into.

This is basic stuff for Christ sake!

It's a game of pigeon chess really, but in terms of PR it is helpful to hear from someone who just doesn't give a single shit about women and children.

very eye opening.

Transwomen which are in fact men by sex, offend at the same rate as men.

Let me say it again.

Men offend at a consistent rate, much higher than women by sex.

Hence why there ore 80k men in prison and 3.4k women. Can you see a difference? Are you willing to admit a difference? No, you aren't, because this is all about male privilege and bullying women.

Transwomen offend at the same rate as men by sex, because they are men by sex.

I will attach one study, but again, this is not a library. Do your own research rather than positing nonsense on here to provoke.

I see you. We all see you. It is sad.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwihk8D8gYvyAhWlnFwKHQ9HD2sQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw1nfGy7VvUMk_Nrwv81ai3h" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwihk8D8gYvyAhWlnFwKHQ9HD2sQFnoECAsQAg&usg=AOvVaw1nfGy7VvUMk_Nrwv81ai3h

So again, it comes purely down to ‘attacks’. With statistics being collected as female statistics, it relies on groups to go in and pull the statistics out. And face the harassment for doing so.

Well done again on your empathy for women.

How about we look at the statistics that we have pulled out in the UK? On males who identify as women, committing sex crimes and are in prison.

Or don’t they count? Because why? Because women separated them out and reported them? So you will not take any notice of them, it was hateful to pull the statistics out in the first place.

Has anyone seen any evidence that the countries already using self declaration have experienced a rise in attacks against women or children? Because as far as I can see there is no evidence of this is Ireland, or Iceland, Portugal, Malta, Norway, Denmark or Belgium?

Google 'Barbie Kardashian' for starters. I believe there is another sex offender in a female prison in Ireland as well, although I don't know any details, I just remember being shocked that there was another case in addition to Barbie Kardashian.

If you want to gatekeep it further how do you do this? I've got a load of friends who are women but are regularly mistaken for men by strangers because of how they choose to present. I reckon they're going to face even further discrimination and bigotry if the policing that people appear to want in this thread occurs in real life. How do you plan on protecting these women from harm?

Funny isn't it - no one had a problem with single sex spaces until men decided that they wanted in on women's spaces.

Same as no one ever had a problem recognising who the men are and who the women are when it came to knowing who to oppress until women, in the West at least, started to get a semblance of equality with men. Now suddenly its oh so complicated and no one can tell who is a man and who is a woman at all! Bull. Shit.

Has anyone seen any evidence that the countries already using self declaration have experienced a rise in attacks against women or children?

'but 'attacks' aren't the problem are they @suggestionsplease1 ?

the problems are

• women and children self excluding from leisure facilities and things like residential school trips because of the risk of being subjected to indecent exposure from males

• women and children ACTUALLY being subjected to indecent exposure from males

I've asked you how we'd track the lost opportunities due to self exclusion, but you didn't answer

and in your utopia, indecent exposure will be perfectly legal and thus impossible to track

women and children will just have to

• stay at home
• or put up with seeing unwanted dicks
• and put up with increased worry about seeing unwanted dicks and not being able to do anything about it

I don't really want to live in your universe if it's all the same to you

If it's their space and their rules then they need to be clear and call it a "mixed sex nude spa". Then people can make an informed choice.

If a business like that says their space is "female only" or "women only" then they can't fuck about with the language otherwise how can any business be clear to their clientele?

And if any business is free to discriminate on the basis of sex then anyone saying "their business, their rules" cannot take offence at gay male saunas saying "no transmen".

This comes down to definitions again. If those who wish to continually cause chaos insist on mangling the definitions of "man" and "woman" then we're not going to get anywhere. If we can agree on what "man" and "woman" means, then yes businesses can advertise as single sex or mixed sex and there shouldn't be a problem.

And yes, their place their rules - but if there is penis in there then it ain't a female space is it? So don't call it one.

Have you got access to some evidence on this that says otherwise?

If you want to gatekeep it further how do you do this? I've got a load of friends who are women but are regularly mistaken for men by strangers because of how they choose to present. I reckon they're going to face even further discrimination and bigotry if the policing that people appear to want in this thread occurs in real life. How do you plan on protecting these women from harm?

Hold on, if it's their place, and their rules, why would 'no penises' be unworkable?

Is the only workable rule 'penises take precedence'?

Which is it - male people will forcibly do whatever they like however inappropriate or whatever the impact on others and cannot be stopped, or women have nothing whatever justifiable to dislike about their spaces being forced to mixed sex?

It's a puzzler!

The benefits are so clearly obviously all to male people and all to the detriment of female people.

And can we please stop calling permitting male people into female spaces 'inclusion'. It is not. Inclusion does not exclude. This is about extending special rights to male people against the interests and to the exclusion of female people.

It's your good old fashioned garden variety medieval sexism. Which is why females needed sex based spaces in the first place; they are always the subordinate sex.

So interesting that those who insist the loudest about gender being more important than sex actually think wholly in sex based ways, and have no trouble knowing which people should never hear no or suffer a moment's distress and who can shut up, put up and piss off, and better not whine about it.

Sex based thinking. Sexist thinking. Old as the bloody hills.

And if they want to offer mixed sex naked spas, that's fine. I just think they'd get limited take up in the US and certainly here in the UK. Just be honest about it.

Exactly. They need to make it clear that it's a mixed sex space.

And if they had a "no penises" policy how the f**k would they police that?

Well I guess they'd make it clear that it was female only as per the EA exemption and ask anyone who got their penis out to leave, bar them etc? Or call the police and report them for indecent exposure? Not rocket science, pretty much what would have happened in times past.

Charities that were set up by women for women, that have 'women' in the title are now being made mixed sex by a small group with an agenda. Are the governing documents being updated?

Women's services such as women's prisons and women's hospital wards are being made mixed sex.

These are services designed to be single sex.
What have I misunderstood?

Anyway I thought it didn't even happen.

Would suggestions take their daughter to a female spa that allowed male penises to be exposed within a metre of their face at eye level?

Please be honest suggestions? Would you be very happy to put your 6 or 9 year old in that situation?

And if it was semi-erect, what would be your explanation?

Their place their rules. If you don't like it that's tough.

On the contrary. I don't believe they have the option to set policies that would exclude males from that section.

Or.... have you missed that point.

And great empathy for the women who are excluded because of this discrimination.

The women of California who were not aware of the potential for harm, are waking up to that potential now though.

just a guess

And if they want to offer mixed sex naked spas, that's fine. I just think they'd get limited take up in the US and certainly here in the UK. Just be honest about it.

Everyone is missing the point. The premises owners have the right to make the rules as long as they don't discriminate unlawfully. Their place their rules. If you don't like it that's tough. And if they had a "no penises" policy how the f**k would they police that?

How any of this helps people who suffer from gender dysphoria and need privacy is a mystery

it is, isn't it? Why would being legally allowed to expose your genitals to children and members of the opposite sex help gender dysphoria?

If it transpired that many were abusing the system in bad faith then it would be right to re-evaluate what is happening to establish what has gone wrong. But I don't think this you should anticipate this in advance. Or act in bad faith yourself to give the example of what you fear will happen.

Jesus wept.

How many examples already occurring do you need?

Do you live in a box, with your fingers permanently in your ears, singing 'la, la, la, I can't hear you'?

n+1

Well its not like we have decades of information regarding what happens when checks aren't made and sufficient safeguarding put in place...

There's a word for repeating the same actions and expecting a different outcome...cant quite remember what it is...