Shameful, incoherent, poorly referenced, completely biased piece of 'journalism' from the Guardian

Guardian apology when?

If you're presently lacking in evidence, and acknowledging that self-exclusion from facilities amongst women is a possible consideration, have you lobbied city councils in Ireland to share anonymised stats on the use of their facilities according to sex/ ethnicity/ religion/ age etc? (if they happen to record all the above for their users.) That way you could demonstrate if a decline has occurred in use amongst certain demographics since the Gender Recognition Act came in in 2015.

Have a little think.
What would any stats recorded as "sex: female" indicate?
Do you think city councils collect data on biological sex?

I think it makes the point crystal clear.

I'm not engaging with Suggestion again as it is a one way conversation.

Now, without answering any questions posed to them, we are yet again supposed to provide them with evidence about Ireland. Let me say this again:

THIS IS NOT A LIBRARY. If you have an actual valid point to make, please do your own research to make the point. In doing so, please take in to account that the delusional males running the show think TWAW except when choosing who to hide the sausage with.

We don't need to micro focus on Ireland. There is evidence from the entire world!

Stop bullying women little man.

If people are acting in bad faith that can, and has been, tackled.
What, like TW taking women's spaces in the Olympics?
TW - or perhaps 'TW' who are just using the designation to get what they want - in women's prisons?

The whole point of safeguarding, @suggestionsplease1, is PREVENT these things from happening, not slam the stable door after the damage has been done.

We have safeguarding because we KNOW that if a loophole exists, sexual predators will exploit it. This is why, at the school where I work (and I use this same example over and over again) even a sweet, frail old lady, well known in her local community, with a daughter who works in the school and a DGC attending the school, has to go through a safeguarding check before she can sit in a corridor (where anyone might walk by at any moment) and hear a child read.

But apparently it's utterly fine to have legislation that allows a bloke to say 'I am a woman' and saunter in a nude female spa and wave his dick around? Can you suggest how we might safeguard against ill-intent in that situation? Or is just that men are more important than women, and making a few men feel sad and unvalidated is much, much worse than opening a loophole through which a sexual predator can shoot like a ferret up a trouser leg, so he can waggle his willy at females who have not consented to see it?

I completely agree that it is.

If men can identify as women and registed themselves as women, how can you record that less women are using services who's facilities are mixed sex?

It makes a mockery or the whole thing, this was the end goal, this is what they wanted and then they gaslight us into believing this never happens.

Tell me how this is not an MRA movement?

Gaslighting, a masterclass.

Indeed

I agree. Mine was more a rhetorical question.

I don't even know why posters are still expecting @suggestionsplease1 to actually interact and respond to questions asked.

They're only here to assert that women's security, needs and wants come second to men's feelings. The fact thata woman saying no is not worthy of @suggestionsplease1 consideration tells us exactly what @suggestionsplease1 thinks of women.

But their very posts are a counter-example. They're willing to jeopardise these rights by blatantly illustrating how little they care about women. They don't have the self-awareness to realise how much they're hurting their own cause by showing how much women's boundaries don't matter.

I don't think so. I think the point is to highlight that women's boundaries don't matter. That we're not important, and what males demand is always going to be prioritised. It's quite common for people to relish doing that, including on Mumsnet.

As I pointed out earlier, which you didn't bother to acknowledge, Suggestionsplease, a male who had made the legal declaration to self ID as a woman took some Danish gyms to court because they wouldn't let him change with the women and instead gave him an alternative place to change. I wonder why, when you claim that some random acquaintance of yours says it's all free and easy there and everyone is perfectly happy getting their kit off in front of the opposite sex?

So you answer that first. Why was that?

I find it most odd that they believe in self ID but only with restrictions which mens they agree with gate keeping too ergo it's not self ID and they will be branded a transphobe anyway.

This person has shown that they think male feelings are more important than the feelings, privacy, dignity, comfort and safety of women and girls.

And they're an illustration of the problem. They may say

I believe when rights are extended they are used with sensitivity and care by the people who benefit from them who do not want to distress others - after all doing this would jeopardise the rights that were gained.

But their very posts are a counter-example. They're willing to jeopardise these rights by blatantly illustrating how little they care about women. They don't have the self-awareness to realise how much they're hurting their own cause by showing how much women's boundaries don't matter.

If they don't have that much self-awareness on a forum, why would a horny male given the chance to enter a nude "female" spa?

So it didn't happen but it might have happened as trans women must be allowed into women's facilities in the state of California and it's no big deal and if it WERE to happen, women should just STFU and not look, bigots.

Gaslighting, a masterclass.

If male sex offenders in womens prisons doesn't make you stop and think then I doubt anything will.

This person has shown that they think male feelings are more important than the feelings, privacy, dignity, comfort and safety of women and girls. They're by no means unusual in that.

If that has occurred and could be attributed to the impact of GRA I would quite happily re-evaluate my stance on how these issues are handled, because I would see that the situation of overall harm might weigh in the balance differentl

If male sex offenders in womens prisons doesn't make you stop and think then I doubt anything will. Be honest

This spa was male (nude), female (nude), and mixed (non-nude).

That works and provides a meaningful 2-way choice for each individual.

The law has made it mixed (nude), mixed (nude), and mixed (non-nude).

People can now only take the nude option if they agree to mixed-sex. This especially disadvantages women. And these spaces are still safeguarded as if single-sex. No chaperones or guards on duty to monitor the males, and the setup encourages lone males to enter. Very, very high risk. Real mixed-sex spaces are made safer by having multiple males prezent. The lone male is far more dangerous.

Do please explain what it means to live as another ‘gender’ without resorting to stereotypes about clothing and hair

Is there any evidence of self-exclusion from countries that use self declaration for say swimming pool/ spa facilities in Ireland and all the other countries that use some form of self-declaration?

I'm sure gyms, swimming pools etc track customer trends but I've not heard of any issues.

I believe when rights are extended they are used with sensitivity and care by the people who benefit from them who do not want to distress others - after all doing this would jeopardise the rights that were gained.

If people are acting in bad faith that can, and has been, tackled.

Self ID doesn't need to be a case of just saying 'I ID as a man/woman' either - Ireland have a solemn declaration stating, amongst other things "i) have a settled and solemn intention to live in the preferred gender for the rest of my life" There aren't 10,000s of men signing this statement, in fact the evidence I have found (annual report for 2019, link below) shows that from 2015-19 there were a total of 599 applications - out of a population of 4,904 million, that constitutes just 0.012% of their population. They just aren't medicalising it in the same way as some other countries, which hopefully leads to people taking less drastic steps of surgery, with all the potential health consequences that brings.

I am sure readers of these boards will be able to advise very clearly what the negative consequences of this has been in Ireland, so please do share the evidence / stats that you have (I know how important facts and evidence are for many GC feminists so I have no doubt you have this.)

If you're presently lacking in evidence, and acknowledging that self-exclusion from facilities amongst women is a possible consideration, have you lobbied city councils in Ireland to share anonymised stats on the use of their facilities according to sex/ ethnicity/ religion/ age etc? (if they happen to record all the above for their users.) That way you could demonstrate if a decline has occurred in use amongst certain demographics since the Gender Recognition Act came in in 2015.

If that has occurred and could be attributed to the impact of GRA I would quite happily re-evaluate my stance on how these issues are handled, because I would see that the situation of overall harm might weigh in the balance differently.

opac.oireachtas.ie/Data/Library3/Documents%20Laid/2021/pdf/DSPdocslaid090321_090321_113436.pdf

That's a shame. My daughter has not been recently because the Covid 19 measures they put in spoilt it, she said - a guard or at least some person on duty, have to change in a different place rather than looking out at trees etc etc.

we will have to go with my mother's advice when we were small children (and we spent a lot of time alone in a large park - Jesmond Dene actually in Newcastle which had its fair share of flashers back in the day)... either ignore them or tell them it looks very small and then apparently the erection will just droop. I think we only saw one once or twice and made a run for it.

Hampstead ponds are now mens mixed and mixed.

Male female and mixed does happen. Eg I think the Hampstead swimming ponds my daughter uses were (or still are (hopefully) that (she uses women only). A bit similar to the waiting rooms at my tube station - women only which includes the toilet and then a mixed one (men don't have one only for themselves, but that is fine - they can cope I am sure).
Nudist beaches and colonies are a different matter - people choose those. I have used those and have no problems because that was my active choice.

But the law is saying that men can get their cocks out in nude "female" spaces so any woman in such a space has consented to men doing that in front of them. So women have no recourse against male flashers (or voyeurs), except to avoid any such "female" spaces.

I believe in some jurisdictions they've ended up with three mixed-sex no-nudity spaces, all functionally the same, but called "male", "female" and "mixed". Barring nudity altogether is the only way to function in such a legal environment. It (for some unfathomable reason) causes problems if you let strange men in close quarters with women, nude.

I think the discrimination one as the spa is private not public.

And mixed nudism etc is fine if that's what a company does and customers want that. I mean that would be advertised as such obviously.