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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs

158 replies

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 00:59

The link is below, as is a copy of the text from the full Telegraph article. I never thought that I would be a Telegraph subscriber but their journalism has been much more trusthworthy on this issue (and I wonder therefore whether it is more open on other issues too). This is going too far. In trying to be inclusive of this 1% of the population, nearly 60% are left feeling alienated and some in tears over it, leaving themselves open to sex discrimination.

My eyes have been opened this year. I reflexively was on board with the TRAs as I considered myself a progressive, open minded and liberal person. Then I realised how regressive, hateful and deceptive the TRA lobby is and how heavily it relies on stifling open discussion around safeguarding women, children and gay/lesbians. It wasn’t until reading the intelligent, compassionate and considered discussion on these boards that I had realised the harm being done. I’ve bought and distributed close to 10 of Helen Joyce’s books, and I’m starting conversations about this with family and friends it is becoming clear how many are GC when the discussion is brought to light (instead of just stifling it all as ‘no debate’, conflating the “trans rights” issues with previous civil rights movements and dismissing any GCs as bigots).

Sorry, too tired to type coherently about all this as there is just too much to say and it’s the end of a long day. I just wanted to thank all of you and hope that 2021 is the year that the tide turns on all of this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/26/scottish-civil-servants-asked-include-pronouns-email-sign-offs/

Thousands of civil servants are to be encouraged to add pronouns to their email sign-offs under plans for a transgender inclusivity drive, despite a backlash from staff.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email.

Some people who class themselves as non-binary prefer pronouns such as they/them, while others prefer “non standard” terms such as “zie” or “zir”, which civil servants would be free to use.

Supporters of the plan to “normalise the inclusion” of pronouns have said this would “foster an open culture that is supportive of the LGBTI+ community”.

However, the plan has provoked opposition from civil servants, after an internal survey set up to gauge opinion provoked a row which left some workers in tears.

Almost 60 per cent did not want to add pronouns to their emails, the results showed.

Meanwhile, campaigners raised fears that workers could feel pressurised to comply with the “stupid” and “authoritarian” policy, which has been backed by the Scottish Government but is yet to be rolled out.

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Documents released on Monday under Freedom of Information legislation show Ms Evans told staff in a Q&A session that “what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful” and said inclusivity policies could be overhauled.

However, Trina Budge, director of the For Women Scotland campaign group, described the pronoun push as “deeply stupid” and accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies”.

“A recent poll showed the majority of civil servants were against this move and it is sad, but not surprising, to see Ms Evans disregard this,” she said.

“In forging ahead with this or any associated coerced signing of a pledge, the Scottish Government would, potentially, be discriminating against a protected belief and also inviting sex discrimination.

“It is further evidence that this Government only pretends to consult or openly discuss, and ditches any views which conflict with their predetermined policies.”

A bitter debate has erupted in Scotland about the issue of transgender rights, with Nicola Sturgeon in favour of changing the law to make it far easier for people to legally change their own gender.

Advocates of the changes believe current rules, which require medical reports and for someone to live in their preferred gender for two years, are too onerous and contribute to high levels of mental health problems in the trans community.

Some feminists, including Harry Potter author JK Rowling, strongly oppose the changes, believing they would erode women’s rights and potentially place them at risk in women-only spaces such as prisons and changing rooms.

The survey set up by supporters of the pronoun pledge found that only 17 per cent of more than 3,000 staff at the Government and its quangos who responded said they already used pronouns on email signatures. A quarter said they did not but might in future while 58 per cent said they did not and probably wouldn't.

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed. Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

The comments made by some staff left other workers “in tears”, Joe Griffin, a director general in the Scottish Government, said.

He called for “empathy on both sides” of the debate and added: “Nobody in a workplace environment should have the fundamental aspect of their identity challenged.”

It was planned that a follow-up survey would run in September, to measure the impact of the initiative.

A Scottish government spokeswoman said: “It is an individual’s choice whether to include their pronouns in introductions and email signatures.

“The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

“As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.”^

OP posts:
ufucoffee · 27/07/2021 09:03

What a load of utter shite. If forced to mine would be woman/adult/human/female.

littleredberries · 27/07/2021 08:58

You needed to lead with Scotland. Yes it sucks

DaisiesandButtercups · 27/07/2021 08:55

OMG! guinnessguzzler I can’t believe I forgot Hogwarts house and little women character! Mea culpa! I resolve to educate myself and do better.

Keepemguessing that is a good point too, believing that sex is real and that it matters is definitely not the kind of belief that is welcomed in Stonewalled workplaces! They really don’t want the likes of us to bring our whole selves to work.

Shimmyshimmycocobop · 27/07/2021 08:49

@ScreamingMeMe

The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

How diverse is Scotland really? That's not to throw shade on Scotland! It just seems to me that they are trying to create diversity rather than reflect it.

Another thing they're trying to force through in the Brave New Kinder Than England World.

This ^

See also Canada trying desperately to be kinder and more inclusive than the US ( and getting it wrong)

APurpleSquirrel · 27/07/2021 08:48

Utterly ridiculous - I will not be putting my pronouns on an email if my employer asks. There's a very good reason Dame Steve Shirley signed herself as Steve & that still holds - this just promotes sexism in the workplace.

HollowTalk · 27/07/2021 08:44

I agree that it's a load of crap. However, I have worked with people in the past - bullies - that I know would have been very very interested in what certain people said their pronouns were. I think there are some very vulnerable people in the workplace, perhaps people who are effeminate or butch, and other people would find it very interesting to see how they classify themselves when actually it's none of their business at all. It is forcing people to out themselves and I really don't think that's fair.

Keepemguessing · 27/07/2021 08:42

Seriously, I never intend on taking my whole self to work. I value my privacy and my working relationships with my colleagues not to mention the general public who I want to feel comfortable when interacting with me which professionalism, neutrality and not displaying anything about my beliefs, dietary choices, sex life, politics, hobbies all contributes towards in my opinion.

I'm also happy to leave my whole self at home while my professional self does my job and pays the bills. And my employer has been Stonewalled so my TERFery is by definition unwelcome.

guinnessguzzler · 27/07/2021 08:40

Or we could all just add our Hogwarts House and favourite Little Woman to our signature. They do usually align anyway. So it would be Gryff / Jo, Slyth / Amy etc.

JustcameoutGC · 27/07/2021 08:30

Agree, I think we should have 'leave some of yourself at home', we just don't need to see that' week.

DaisiesandButtercups · 27/07/2021 08:27

Grombles it is not only your astrological placements which you have left off but I am not seeing your MBTI type, enneagram or preferred aesthetic!!!

What kind of person are you that you wouldn’t let everyone know if you are more cottagecore or academia and if academia are you light or dark?

Seriously, I never intend on taking my whole self to work. I value my privacy and my working relationships with my colleagues not to mention the general public who I want to feel comfortable when interacting with me which professionalism, neutrality and not displaying anything about my beliefs, dietary choices, sex life, politics, hobbies all contributes towards in my opinion.

Taking the “whole self” to work will surely only create conflict and strife in the workplace. Yet I suppose that is the purpose of queer theory, to disrupt all those social norms which many people might believe help us live and work together in relative peace as well as those which promote safeguarding, respect, privacy and dignity.

guinnessguzzler · 27/07/2021 08:27

@JustcameoutGC I was typing as you posted, couldn't agree more.

guinnessguzzler · 27/07/2021 08:24

I don't think I will ever fully understand this. I have spent my adult life working hard to care what I think of myself and not what others think of me. I have found the better I am at that, the happier I am.

JustcameoutGC · 27/07/2021 07:53

Oh for fuck sake. What next, compulsory pronoun badges?

I hate this identify based politics, it is so utterly self centered, it is the ultimate expression of a life lived on line. It will get us no where. It will not advance us as a species. We are at our best when we work in tribes and pull together to achieve incredible things.

Now we are split up into shes and zirs and zies and other made up bollocks.

Let's see what the zies build. An entire refuge system for battered zies? A rape crisis network for zirs? No, just some bollocks on the end of your e mails. And that is what is now seen as important, that is progress.

Abhannmor · 27/07/2021 07:39

Such cretinous and evasive language. How does one write a pronoun ' around ' ones name? Would it not make more sense to write it after the name? Better still ; don't bother.

Thelikelylass · 27/07/2021 07:30

1984 -Sexcrime.

Thelikelylass · 27/07/2021 07:29

And harmless Bob in accounts uses the wrong pronouns in a meeting one day, gets hauled in, suspended, gets in the DM, ends up all over twitter despite not using it because Bob is a gardener at the weekend and volunteers for the RNLI. Bob then has to go into hiding because of threats to him and his family.

Keepemguessing · 27/07/2021 07:24

Why was Datun's post deleted?

I won't be announcing my pronouns at work. I've already sent our head of EDI an email saying so. So far I'm okay but hope I haven't put a target on my back.

FunnyInjury · 27/07/2021 07:20

Exactly Grombles it's an e-mail signature not a bloody tinder profile 🤦‍♀️

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/07/2021 07:11

Grombles you’ve missed off your star sign info, this making my astrology supporting friends feel very unsafe. They are often mocked for their belief that individuals fall into one of 12 personality types due to when they are born. Literally shaking, do better, educate yourself etc. Please look up Russell Grant and Mystic Meg’s thoughts on this 🙏

Keepemguessing · 27/07/2021 07:05

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes deleted post

MoreRainThanAnyYet · 27/07/2021 07:05

As far as I'm concerned, anyone displaying pronouns in their email signature is either peacocking their ideology or completely clueless.
My full time colleagues all do it because they’ve been told they must. I can’t see that it encourages anything but resentment.

AnyOldPrion · 27/07/2021 06:58

I am finding this increasingly bizarre. The more this stuff is pushed, the more it becomes apparent that the majority do not support it and worse, are becoming distressed and/or angry.

Do these people really believe that by pushing harder and harder, they will suddenly persuade people? Can they really be in such a bubble that they can’t see?

With gay rights, the position was the complete opposite. The public was increasingly behind the idea and it was the government that called it wrong with section 28, so perhaps that answers my question. Governments can wholly fail to see what’s happening.

But it’s the blindness to all the rational arguments that continues to astonish, over and over. Literally the only argument I can see in defense against the very obvious problems with self-ID is “there aren’t many men who will use and misuse it, therefore the problem won’t be huge” which is more dismissal of concerns than rational argument.

If they really want to push ahead, they’d be better to attempt some kind of mitigation (e.g. strengthening and clarifying important single sex exemptions) and appeal to the public to give it a try. Bashing on when support is so low, with all the very obvious problems being pointed out in the press, looks close to some kind of extreme irrationality.

But then I guess the idea of introducing it in prisons “because if we can make it work there, that’ll prove our point” is about as irrational as it gets. If they can look at that around the world and still think that’s going to be a success, they must have blinkers on,

ScreamingMeMe · 27/07/2021 06:50

The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

How diverse is Scotland really? That's not to throw shade on Scotland! It just seems to me that they are trying to create diversity rather than reflect it.

Another thing they're trying to force through in the Brave New Kinder Than England World.

Datun · 27/07/2021 05:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

NiceGerbil · 27/07/2021 03:52

This is against the yogakarthi (SP) principles.

No one should be expected to out themselves.

All this shows is that they don't actually have an interest in trans people in general.

All this is about something else...