Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs

158 replies

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 00:59

The link is below, as is a copy of the text from the full Telegraph article. I never thought that I would be a Telegraph subscriber but their journalism has been much more trusthworthy on this issue (and I wonder therefore whether it is more open on other issues too). This is going too far. In trying to be inclusive of this 1% of the population, nearly 60% are left feeling alienated and some in tears over it, leaving themselves open to sex discrimination.

My eyes have been opened this year. I reflexively was on board with the TRAs as I considered myself a progressive, open minded and liberal person. Then I realised how regressive, hateful and deceptive the TRA lobby is and how heavily it relies on stifling open discussion around safeguarding women, children and gay/lesbians. It wasn’t until reading the intelligent, compassionate and considered discussion on these boards that I had realised the harm being done. I’ve bought and distributed close to 10 of Helen Joyce’s books, and I’m starting conversations about this with family and friends it is becoming clear how many are GC when the discussion is brought to light (instead of just stifling it all as ‘no debate’, conflating the “trans rights” issues with previous civil rights movements and dismissing any GCs as bigots).

Sorry, too tired to type coherently about all this as there is just too much to say and it’s the end of a long day. I just wanted to thank all of you and hope that 2021 is the year that the tide turns on all of this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/26/scottish-civil-servants-asked-include-pronouns-email-sign-offs/

Thousands of civil servants are to be encouraged to add pronouns to their email sign-offs under plans for a transgender inclusivity drive, despite a backlash from staff.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email.

Some people who class themselves as non-binary prefer pronouns such as they/them, while others prefer “non standard” terms such as “zie” or “zir”, which civil servants would be free to use.

Supporters of the plan to “normalise the inclusion” of pronouns have said this would “foster an open culture that is supportive of the LGBTI+ community”.

However, the plan has provoked opposition from civil servants, after an internal survey set up to gauge opinion provoked a row which left some workers in tears.

Almost 60 per cent did not want to add pronouns to their emails, the results showed.

Meanwhile, campaigners raised fears that workers could feel pressurised to comply with the “stupid” and “authoritarian” policy, which has been backed by the Scottish Government but is yet to be rolled out.

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Documents released on Monday under Freedom of Information legislation show Ms Evans told staff in a Q&A session that “what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful” and said inclusivity policies could be overhauled.

However, Trina Budge, director of the For Women Scotland campaign group, described the pronoun push as “deeply stupid” and accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies”.

“A recent poll showed the majority of civil servants were against this move and it is sad, but not surprising, to see Ms Evans disregard this,” she said.

“In forging ahead with this or any associated coerced signing of a pledge, the Scottish Government would, potentially, be discriminating against a protected belief and also inviting sex discrimination.

“It is further evidence that this Government only pretends to consult or openly discuss, and ditches any views which conflict with their predetermined policies.”

A bitter debate has erupted in Scotland about the issue of transgender rights, with Nicola Sturgeon in favour of changing the law to make it far easier for people to legally change their own gender.

Advocates of the changes believe current rules, which require medical reports and for someone to live in their preferred gender for two years, are too onerous and contribute to high levels of mental health problems in the trans community.

Some feminists, including Harry Potter author JK Rowling, strongly oppose the changes, believing they would erode women’s rights and potentially place them at risk in women-only spaces such as prisons and changing rooms.

The survey set up by supporters of the pronoun pledge found that only 17 per cent of more than 3,000 staff at the Government and its quangos who responded said they already used pronouns on email signatures. A quarter said they did not but might in future while 58 per cent said they did not and probably wouldn't.

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed. Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

The comments made by some staff left other workers “in tears”, Joe Griffin, a director general in the Scottish Government, said.

He called for “empathy on both sides” of the debate and added: “Nobody in a workplace environment should have the fundamental aspect of their identity challenged.”

It was planned that a follow-up survey would run in September, to measure the impact of the initiative.

A Scottish government spokeswoman said: “It is an individual’s choice whether to include their pronouns in introductions and email signatures.

“The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

“As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.”^

OP posts:
suggestionsplease1 · 27/07/2021 12:12

I don't see how this is helpful and I won't be doing it if my organisation brings it up. To my mind it confers an importance / a significance to what sex you are that is unwarranted.

I am pretty supportive of trans rights but, when thinking of the many people out there who are experiencing gender confusion before, or if, they get to a point of fully determining - this really doesn't help them out.

It probably creates an additional pressure / expectation on them to declare something before they are ready to, if they are ever ready to, and then that commitment of having to put something down is harder to walk back from (if choices are later re-evaluated) without experiencing loss of face.

I would very happily use the pronouns anyone else wanted me to use for them.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/07/2021 12:07

This is such a box ticking exercise. ScotGov are obviously really desperate to get into the Stonewall top 100.

I'm pretty sure they are things they could be doing to actually make life better for the LGB and the T, rather than token gestures which are likely to actually have a negative impact on these communities.

ginghamstarfish · 27/07/2021 11:49

What a load of bollocks. I live in Scotland and would prefer the government to spend their time and our money on stuff that actually matters, such as education, roads, healthcare etc. Never voted for the SNP and never will, as they seem to have only two aims - independence and wokeness, and fuck everything else.

Datun · 27/07/2021 11:46

I've no idea why my post was deleted. I have asked. I was expressing (very mildly) my beliefs around why I think incorrect pronoun usage is being compelled.

And yes, this is the quickest way to set up a backlash.

As everyone points out, what happens if you get it wrong? What if you don't want to be outed? Or treated to sexism?

It's compelling people to pretend they subscribe to an ideology that many of them won't.

And what if you don't want to validate certain people's idea of themselves? What if you find it actively discriminatory towards you?

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 27/07/2021 11:42

It was suggested at our public sector organisation as a way of showing we were trans allies. Caused quite a strong reaction. I told my manager that we don’t declare any of our other protected characteristics in our signatures so I had no desire to include anything indicating my sex (I have a “gender neutral” name). Added a few other arguments against pronouns as per lots of previous threads here. Colleagues promoting use of pronouns behaved very inappropriately and were spoken to about their conduct. Upshot is I’ve noticed 1 person using them so far so it hasn’t gained much traction at all and the resistance to the idea has put the org on notice to think a bit more carefully about how they approach these issues in future.

VienneseWhirligig · 27/07/2021 11:42

I work in the civil service (in England) and my department has also asked us to consider adding our pronouns to our email signatures. It isn't mandatory and I haven't added mine. I would be very irritated if it became compulsory- if others want to do it that's up to them but it seems silly - the majority of those to have complied so far are those for whom their "she/her" pronouns are a case in stating the bleeding obvious.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 27/07/2021 11:39

@MoreRainThanAnyYet

As far as I'm concerned, anyone displaying pronouns in their email signature is either peacocking their ideology or completely clueless. My full time colleagues all do it because they’ve been told they must. I can’t see that it encourages anything but resentment.

Your colleagues need to grow a backbone if they have an issue with it.

No one "must" do this. The fact that they're not standing up to it will cause resentment, yes. By going along with this shite they're furthering the infiltration of gender ideology into every day life.

Ideology
Ignorance
Cowardice.

None of these is a very good look. I hope your colleagues get a grip soon.

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 11:36

Having been a civil servant many moons ago, I imagine/hope this will go the way of strictly enforced differently coloured rubber bands depending on the day of the week.

Yes, really.

TheShadowyFeminist · 27/07/2021 11:29

Someone should FOI Scotgov for their equality impact assessment on this policy they're pushing & going ahead with despite the lack of positive feedback from the majority of employees.

How can they claim to be fostering good relations under these circumstances?

McNameMcChange · 27/07/2021 11:27

Hello, my pronouns are Fuck / Right / Off

I'm an SG civil servant, and I am stealing this for future use! Most internal emails I get don't have any pronouns in the signature, so good luck Leslie. Hmm

Beowulfa · 27/07/2021 11:12

Information that is useful and pertinent on a work email signature:

-first name and surname clearly delineated
-title (in academia specifically)
-job title
-phone number
-address with postcode

Information that is not useful/pertinent:

-everything else

Deliriumoftheendless · 27/07/2021 10:50

I don’t bother reading half my work emails as it is (people! Learn to reply to the original email not reply all!) so I’m hardly going to read your sig, mate.

Ooodlesofboodles · 27/07/2021 10:42

How can they compel this if being GC is protected in law?
I think I would identify as pronoun free.

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 10:32

yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/

Principle 6
The Right to Privacy

Everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, is entitled to the enjoyment of privacy without arbitrary or unlawful interference, including with regard to their family, home or correspondence as well as to protection from unlawful attacks on their honour and reputation. The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as decisions and choices regarding both one’s own body and consensual sexual and other relations with others.

States shall:

a) Take all necessary legislative, administrative and other measures to ensure the right of each person, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, to enjoy the private sphere, intimate decisions, and human relations, including consensual sexual activity among persons who are over the age of consent, without arbitrary interference;

b) Repeal all laws that criminalise consensual sexual activity among persons of the same sex who are over the age of consent, and ensure that an equal age of consent applies to both same-sex and different-sex sexual activity;

c) Ensure that criminal and other legal provisions of general application are not applied de facto to criminalise consensual sexual activity among persons of the same sex who are over the age of consent;

d) Repeal any law that prohibits or criminalises the expression of gender identity, including through dress, speech or mannerisms, or that denies to individuals the opportunity to change their bodies as a means of expressing their gender identity;

e) Release all those held on remand or on the basis of a criminal conviction, if their detention is related to consensual sexual activity among persons who are over the age of consent, or is related to gender identity;

f) Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.

ODFOD21 · 27/07/2021 10:27

It like everything should be OPTIONAL

SnoopyLights · 27/07/2021 10:22

Oh for fuck sake. What next, compulsory pronoun badges?

If that happens, I've already got mine, from Wild Womyn Workshop. She sells a pack of seven, one for every day of the week.

My favourite one is "Hello, my pronouns are sex-based (like my oppression" but I'm also fond of "Hello - pronouns are gaslighting" and "Hello, my pronouns are Fuck / Right / Off".

EarthSight · 27/07/2021 10:18

“what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful”

This is is worrying because, before, information around one's name was just a descriptor, now you are supposed to use that space to be helpful, apparently. Real life is copying Twitter where people often put their sexuality, political information next to their name. No one should be asked to do this. The wording is really interesting if you invert it -

“what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful - if you don't comply, you will be seen as 'bad and unhelpful'

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 10:06

Using pronouns is an actively hostile gesture. It is sexist and potentially damaging, to both women and anyone who is struggling wtih gender identity issues. It's divisive and othering.

I wonder if it's possible to make a complaint about this ...

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/03/11/scottish-civil-service-subsumed-snp/

www.gov.scot/publications/foi-19-00096/

The partiality ofthe Scottish civil service should be huge cause for concern.

DialSquare · 27/07/2021 09:51

I just had my first email from someone with pronouns. External not Internal. We were told that we are welcome to put pronouns in our emails but I'm yet to see anyone in my company do it. The one I received today had a link to this.

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs
Warmduscher · 27/07/2021 09:48

Outing people who don’t want to put pronouns at the end of their email is rather the opposite of inclusivity, no?

senua · 27/07/2021 09:20

Speaking as an ordinary Member of the Public, I don't care about Civil Servants' pronouns. I just want them to get on and do their job. Efficiently and quickly. If I am complaining about potholes in the road or planning decisions do you really think that I care if the reply comes from he/her/zir? Of course not - just do your job, preferably this side of Christmas.
What a colossal waste of public time and money.

Triphazards · 27/07/2021 09:19

Don't put "English" in your signature, or you might find out how deep the inclusidiversity doesn't go.

ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 09:16

Well, this is brilliant.

It will definitely encourage the 6,000 employees involved to feel warm and fuzzy about gender ideology. And I would be really surprised if we see some rocking up here to find out why on earth they aren't allowed to decline a 'pledge' without being put on a list as a refuser and called a bigot.

[waving] hello, new visitors. Welcome to Gilead.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email

Why a 'pledge'? They can't just ask people do do this unnecessary, damaging and pointless task, they insist on a 'pledge'. Does it involve blood? Or some kind of ritual?

KohlaParasanda · 27/07/2021 09:15

DaisiesandButtercups: Seriously, I never intend on taking my whole self to work. I value my privacy and my working relationships with my colleagues not to mention the general public who I want to feel comfortable when interacting with me which professionalism, neutrality and not displaying anything about my beliefs, dietary choices, sex life, politics, hobbies all contributes towards in my opinion.

Totally this. I've had 40 years of making an effort not to take my whole self to work because it's important that the people I come into contact with at work are able to feel that our interaction is about them, not about me, and because I don't feel the need to give the ever-changing faceless names in management (public service) more of a window into who I am than is necessary to establish that I'm a safe and suitably qualified person to do my job.

We haven't been asked to put pronouns on our email signatures yet, but I'm prepared to decline politely if told to do so. Nobody should need to use she/her when talking to me, and what people call me when talking about me is something I'm too old to care about.