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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

8,000 civil servants to be asked to include pronouns in email sign-offs

158 replies

RedRobin20 · 27/07/2021 00:59

The link is below, as is a copy of the text from the full Telegraph article. I never thought that I would be a Telegraph subscriber but their journalism has been much more trusthworthy on this issue (and I wonder therefore whether it is more open on other issues too). This is going too far. In trying to be inclusive of this 1% of the population, nearly 60% are left feeling alienated and some in tears over it, leaving themselves open to sex discrimination.

My eyes have been opened this year. I reflexively was on board with the TRAs as I considered myself a progressive, open minded and liberal person. Then I realised how regressive, hateful and deceptive the TRA lobby is and how heavily it relies on stifling open discussion around safeguarding women, children and gay/lesbians. It wasn’t until reading the intelligent, compassionate and considered discussion on these boards that I had realised the harm being done. I’ve bought and distributed close to 10 of Helen Joyce’s books, and I’m starting conversations about this with family and friends it is becoming clear how many are GC when the discussion is brought to light (instead of just stifling it all as ‘no debate’, conflating the “trans rights” issues with previous civil rights movements and dismissing any GCs as bigots).

Sorry, too tired to type coherently about all this as there is just too much to say and it’s the end of a long day. I just wanted to thank all of you and hope that 2021 is the year that the tide turns on all of this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/07/26/scottish-civil-servants-asked-include-pronouns-email-sign-offs/

Thousands of civil servants are to be encouraged to add pronouns to their email sign-offs under plans for a transgender inclusivity drive, despite a backlash from staff.

^The Scottish Government is backing proposals that would ask its 8,000 workers to take a “pronoun pledge” under which they would add terms reflecting their gender identity, such as she/her or he/him, to signatures at the bottom of every work email.

Some people who class themselves as non-binary prefer pronouns such as they/them, while others prefer “non standard” terms such as “zie” or “zir”, which civil servants would be free to use.

Supporters of the plan to “normalise the inclusion” of pronouns have said this would “foster an open culture that is supportive of the LGBTI+ community”.

However, the plan has provoked opposition from civil servants, after an internal survey set up to gauge opinion provoked a row which left some workers in tears.

Almost 60 per cent did not want to add pronouns to their emails, the results showed.

Meanwhile, campaigners raised fears that workers could feel pressurised to comply with the “stupid” and “authoritarian” policy, which has been backed by the Scottish Government but is yet to be rolled out.

Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month.

Documents released on Monday under Freedom of Information legislation show Ms Evans told staff in a Q&A session that “what we write around our name” could be “good and helpful” and said inclusivity policies could be overhauled.

However, Trina Budge, director of the For Women Scotland campaign group, described the pronoun push as “deeply stupid” and accused the Scottish Government of displaying “controlling, illiberal and authoritarian tendencies”.

“A recent poll showed the majority of civil servants were against this move and it is sad, but not surprising, to see Ms Evans disregard this,” she said.

“In forging ahead with this or any associated coerced signing of a pledge, the Scottish Government would, potentially, be discriminating against a protected belief and also inviting sex discrimination.

“It is further evidence that this Government only pretends to consult or openly discuss, and ditches any views which conflict with their predetermined policies.”

A bitter debate has erupted in Scotland about the issue of transgender rights, with Nicola Sturgeon in favour of changing the law to make it far easier for people to legally change their own gender.

Advocates of the changes believe current rules, which require medical reports and for someone to live in their preferred gender for two years, are too onerous and contribute to high levels of mental health problems in the trans community.

Some feminists, including Harry Potter author JK Rowling, strongly oppose the changes, believing they would erode women’s rights and potentially place them at risk in women-only spaces such as prisons and changing rooms.

The survey set up by supporters of the pronoun pledge found that only 17 per cent of more than 3,000 staff at the Government and its quangos who responded said they already used pronouns on email signatures. A quarter said they did not but might in future while 58 per cent said they did not and probably wouldn't.

Many trans and non-binary people introduce themselves with their preferred pronouns, so others know how they wish to be addressed. Some equality groups argue that even for people who are not trans or non-binary, adding pronouns to emails can be an important sign of inclusion towards those who are.

The comments made by some staff left other workers “in tears”, Joe Griffin, a director general in the Scottish Government, said.

He called for “empathy on both sides” of the debate and added: “Nobody in a workplace environment should have the fundamental aspect of their identity challenged.”

It was planned that a follow-up survey would run in September, to measure the impact of the initiative.

A Scottish government spokeswoman said: “It is an individual’s choice whether to include their pronouns in introductions and email signatures.

“The Scottish Government is making progress towards our ambition to be a world leading, diverse employer where people can be themselves at work, with a workforce that reflects the diversity of the people of Scotland.

“As an employer we are committed to a progressive approach to advancing LGBTI equality. We encourage any action that makes people feel included and respected in our organisation.”^

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 17:15

I missed a 'tasting the strawberry' initiative, Artichoke. Did it involve cake? [hopeful] Cake

Artichokeleaves · 27/07/2021 17:01

@ArabellaScott

Having been a civil servant many moons ago, I imagine/hope this will go the way of strictly enforced differently coloured rubber bands depending on the day of the week.

Yes, really.

Not to mention all that bollocks about 'does this colleague get on the bus' in performance reviews, and 'tasting the strawberry'.

Which was laughed out, along with the highly paid chocolate teapot at the top.

vesuvia · 27/07/2021 16:54

Quotation from the Telegraph' article: "Comments written by workers expressing concerns alongside the internal poll were dismissed as “disappointing” by Leslie Evans, Scotland's top civil servant, in a meeting with staff last month."

Leslie has the advantage of having a unisex name. I expect she will soon discover that she will probably be taken less seriously (for numerous reasons) if she includes she/her in her email signature.

TheRebelle · 27/07/2021 16:50

My feeling is that if you have to tell people which pronouns you use then they’re probably not the correct pronouns, otherwise it would be obvious.

McNameMcChange · 27/07/2021 16:44

@RedDogsBeg

A second poll is due to be conducted in September to see if there’s any change in the numbers.

Keep asking until they get the right answer then?

and exactly how much time and money is being wasted on this?

It's a poll on the intranet which would only take a few minutes to set up so I think the answer to your question is "not much" thankfully. It is worth doing again if only because the percentage of people who think it's a stupid idea will likely increase!
RedDogsBeg · 27/07/2021 16:36

A second poll is due to be conducted in September to see if there’s any change in the numbers.

Keep asking until they get the right answer then?

and exactly how much time and money is being wasted on this?

Wearywithteens · 27/07/2021 16:33

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 27/07/2021 16:19

@WhereYouLeftIt

Headline - "Majority of Scottish Government civil servants say they'll never add pronouns to their email signatures"

www.holyrood.com/news/view,majority-of-scottish-government-civil-servants-say-theyll-never-add-pronouns-to-their-email-signatures

It's not popular. If the DG pushes it, there'll be a backlash I think.

Good. More people need to start growing a fucking backbone about this stuff.

A second poll is due to be conducted in September to see if there’s any change in the numbers.

However, internal correspondence, released to Holyrood under Freedom of Information legislation, showed that government staff working on the first poll were concerned about opposition to the proposal, and removed a comment option on the June poll to “minimise any negative responses.”

Sleekit bastards the lot of them.

Needmoresleep · 27/07/2021 16:16

It is a power play.

Shows you can force the majority to do something they don't want to do. Shows who wields the power.

DH's organisation (public sector, England) has given notice that they will expect pronouns to be added. Cue an enthusiastic DD suggesting possible neo-pronouns. (Google happily finds lots of lists.) I am not sure DH is that brave. He is more likely simply to "forget" to do it, or to delete anything as soon as the corporate enthusiasm wears off.

WhereYouLeftIt · 27/07/2021 16:05

Headline - "Majority of Scottish Government civil servants say they'll never add pronouns to their email signatures"

www.holyrood.com/news/view,majority-of-scottish-government-civil-servants-say-theyll-never-add-pronouns-to-their-email-signatures

It's not popular. If the DG pushes it, there'll be a backlash I think.

Aprilinspringtimeshower · 27/07/2021 15:46

@APurpleSquirrel

Utterly ridiculous - I will not be putting my pronouns on an email if my employer asks. There's a very good reason Dame Steve Shirley signed herself as Steve & that still holds - this just promotes sexism in the workplace.
Absolutely this. I struggled all my working life being disregarded and not taken as seriously as my male colleagues. I liked just using my nick name in emails and not identifying my sex. That way I was taken more seriously until people got to know me. Once they actually got talking to me, phone or f2f it was then unnecessary to tell them. I never give out my first name, now I’ve retired, to any businesses or official places, unless it is in my interest for security . Otherwise I just use my 2 initials without a space- most IT system will recognise that as a name. I don’t see any advantage to advertising I’m a women to strangers m and every disadvantage
ArabellaScott · 27/07/2021 15:32

@HerewardTheWoke

I just wanted to add that I think that pronoun declaration is totally inappropriate for civil servants in particular, as they are meant to be politically impartial.

I get that for some people it's an unthinking 'be kind' gesture, but I tend to read pronouns in email signatures as a statement of political belief that gender identity trumps sex.

Under the Civil Service Code, which sets the standards of behaviour for the civil service, civil servants are obliged to act in a way which will retain the confidence of any future government that you can advise them impartially. That means not being overt about your own personal politics in any context (and for politically restricted civil servants, it goes as far as having to declare any party political memberships, not being able to stand in elections or campaign openly etc).

I do feel very strongly that pronoun declaration is completely incompatible with the Code. It is disappointing that some of our most senior leaders are promoting it, as it shows they either don't understand that this is a political ideology or aren't troubled by the capture. The thing that gives me hope is that there is obviously resistance among the troops - and there are also some people close to the top who get it, although I do wonder what (if anything) they are actually doing about it behind the scenes.

Completely agree. Again, I find the blurring of the civil service with the govt, thus politicisation of former, enormously worrying.
GromblesofGrimbledon · 27/07/2021 14:49

@MoreRainThanAnyYet

GromblesofGrimbledon I doubt many of them are on MN. And half of them have just been 'restructured', so I think they'll have other things on their minds to get a grip about, like job hunting. I'm not about to launch in and nag.

I'll put 'whatever' on mine if anyone insists.

I don't know what being on Mumsnet has got to do with doing the right thing. And no one is saying it's up to you to convince them.

I simply hope they get a grip of themselves. Everyone has their shit to wade through in life. That doesn't prevent all of us from doing the right thing.

I've no time for meek people in this fight anymore. I refuse to do or say anything that makes me feel weaker and I'm starting to seriously judge anyone who just does as they're told when they know damn well how wrong it is.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 27/07/2021 14:45

@Namechangeforthisquestion7

This makes me cringe. I don't have pronouns in my email signature because I don't have any other personal details in my email signature, only my job title and phone number. How people refer to me is not my concern. I genuinely don't see how everyone sharing pronouns makes anyone feel included. Surely if you don't feel included there is a lot more behind that than someone knowing your pronoun? Maybe I'm just old and out of touch though.
I really don't think it is about being 'inclusive'. I think pronouns are a very aggressive mechanism to compel our language and adherence to the gender religion and by refusing we open ourselves to accusations of being non-inclusive, transphobic etc. I will not under any circumstances be including pronouns in my emails or in training courses etc. I lose respect for colleagues that submit to this bollocks to be honest.
MoreRainThanAnyYet · 27/07/2021 14:43

GromblesofGrimbledon I doubt many of them are on MN. And half of them have just been 'restructured', so I think they'll have other things on their minds to get a grip about, like job hunting. I'm not about to launch in and nag.

I'll put 'whatever' on mine if anyone insists.

nauticant · 27/07/2021 13:38

I smiled at your example signature block GromblesofGrimbledon, then thought "hang on, it looks more like a dating profile than anything", then realised that the endpoint of this kind of nonsense is for the recipient of an email to be able to look at the signature block and decide from it whether they like or dislike the sender.

littlbrowndog · 27/07/2021 12:58

Do I have to share my pronouns at work

womansplaceuk.org/2021/06/27/share-pronouns-at-work/

ConkerBonkers · 27/07/2021 12:39

Could someone put she/him down to somewhat confuse matters?

GrimDamnFanjo · 27/07/2021 12:39

Isn't there some research data somewhere that proves this isn't a good thing from a discriminatory perspective?

pluckedcactus · 27/07/2021 12:36

I've jinxed myself here. Was relieved it was only Scotland and now my department has posted about participating in the workplace equality index 2022.

littlbrowndog · 27/07/2021 12:36

Hereward 💪💪💪💪
My government should spend there time improving education and children’s mental health not this idiotic stuff

Did the whole of Scotland stand up and say we want pronouns now.

They did a survey. Most people said no

Well fuck off the people that said no.

We are telling you what to do.

HerewardTheWoke · 27/07/2021 12:18

I just wanted to add that I think that pronoun declaration is totally inappropriate for civil servants in particular, as they are meant to be politically impartial.

I get that for some people it's an unthinking 'be kind' gesture, but I tend to read pronouns in email signatures as a statement of political belief that gender identity trumps sex.

Under the Civil Service Code, which sets the standards of behaviour for the civil service, civil servants are obliged to act in a way which will retain the confidence of any future government that you can advise them impartially. That means not being overt about your own personal politics in any context (and for politically restricted civil servants, it goes as far as having to declare any party political memberships, not being able to stand in elections or campaign openly etc).

I do feel very strongly that pronoun declaration is completely incompatible with the Code. It is disappointing that some of our most senior leaders are promoting it, as it shows they either don't understand that this is a political ideology or aren't troubled by the capture. The thing that gives me hope is that there is obviously resistance among the troops - and there are also some people close to the top who get it, although I do wonder what (if anything) they are actually doing about it behind the scenes.

zanahoria · 27/07/2021 12:17

Brilliant comments from Tina Brudge, absolutely top class

and good work from all the civil servants standing up to this.

No employer should have the right to create these sort of shiboleths to guage the ideological purity of their staff

dyslek · 27/07/2021 12:16

@AnyOldPrion Authoritians tend not to care how badly they are comming off. It about using their power over others to dominate.

Nonmaquillee · 27/07/2021 12:13

I got as far as “pronoun pledge “ and gave up.

What a load of self-absorbed hogwash.

What’s the Scottish government actually doing to tackle real-life inequalities?